Transcript

Elder Shirley  6:51  

My name is Shirley John and I am First Nations, I consent to have this video made by Jessica Sass and whoever else is involved, and to use it in places where it needs to be heard in that and to or to delete anything that you feel is not doesn't fit right. I agree with all of it. 

Jessica Sass  7:23  

So can you tell me what your name is? What your pronouns are a little bit about yourself.

Elder Shirley  7:33  

My name is Shirley John. And the name that I am known by also this Strong White Buffalo Woman. I'm from the Loon clan. I'm from Anishnaabe First Nation, near Southampton, Ontario, Canada, and near Lake Golf, near the lake Huron at beautiful Lake Huron. So that's, that's where I'm from. And I'm grateful to be asked to be a part of this. This was a great honor to be here today. I should stay really, to be asked to participate. 

Jessica Sass  8:11  

Thank you, and how are you doing today?

 Elder Shirley  8:14  

I started my day in prayer, I smudge. And even before we even start I smudge, I bring good intentions and all that I do. Make much thank you , my day starts in in prayer as it sets intentions to have a good day for the mind, the body, the soul, the spirit, and to have peace, joy and love in all that I do throughout the day to have a good mind.

 Jessica Sass  8:47  

That's a day that I want to have. So I'm gonna jump right in your connection will Facing History and the curricula. So when were you first introduced to Facing History, and what was your first experience?

 Elder Shirley  9:03  

My first experience was when I went to the Blue Water Board of Education. I sang songs and did the prayer over there.  And this is where it first started with Facing History, and I give thanks to Leora Schaefer for that piece because she's the one that first found me, and our relationship just grew from there. And it hasn't stopped for over six years now. It's it's gotten bigger and bigger since we first started in that and I'm really happy and enjoy working with the Facing History team out of Toronto. And Toronto is about two and a half three hours away from me, but we managed to meet in different areas in that when we were able to meet. Now that we're on COVID is here, we have to meet on Zoom most places is where we meet and have to do our work. We just finished Alberta? So, you know, we're at home doing all this work, but still, you're connected to all people, and that's great. No, it's great. That's my first contact. 

 Jessica Sass  10:17  

What did you hope for when initially engaging and partnering with Facing History?

 Elder Shirley  10:23  

I guess the gratitude, the gratitude that I can show others how to begin their day, to begin their day by opening with a song to the four directions, the bring all the four directions in the Anishinaabe people, the Oriental people, the colored people, and the white people. And the middle of all of that is the one that gives us the breath of life, and to send smudge to all nations that are in the program or are in the study group, that they will come at a place where it's going to be safe, and that they get rid of all the negative energy that they may be carrying. Sometimes I use the water and that works the same way as you would with the sage and smudge itself. So with that, you know, when I bring the intention to have a good meeting today, to have a good session with the teachers, that anything that has bothered them all day long, will be left out there not be brought into a space where we're all going to be talking about and sharing and just enjoying each other's company, and sharing what we need to share.

 Jessica Sass  11:44  

Can you share a little bit more about the song and the meaning of the song that you typically start out with, or if you want to sing some of it?

 Elder Shirley  11:56  

Sometimes I sing the song today, the songs we sing are usually in the four directions.

 Elder Shirley  12:06  

Grandmother sitting in the east, I feel you looking at me, I pray to you, I pray for you. You are sacred. I feel you looking at me. 

 Elder Shirley  12:32  

So with that song, you go to the four directions with that. And all the grandmothers and all the mothers and all women sitting in those directions, the living angels, the ones that have gone on to the spirit world, you asked them to come be with us today to help us and help us walk through this, the session with us that we will be blessed in a good way. That's what that song is about.

 Jessica Sass  12:56  

Very cool. Thank you, thank you for sharing that. You've had this relationship for now over six years, or about six years now. So when or why did you decide to play more of an active role within Facing History's workshops, or curriculum development?

 Elder Shirley  13:19  

That's the work that I do as an Elder. As you saw what I just finished doing, the smudge. I did the water; there's a water song that goes with this same thing as the four directions. And that's bringing water to you. And to everyone, that's on the screen, we will be blessed that we can do this work together in a good way. And to put that, maybe I have a headache today to put that water where it is needed. And that because we've prayed for that water, so the blessings already brought to you in that. So yeah, that's the role that an Elder myself as an Elder that I do that the work that I do. And as we come in contact with all people, we all need some kind of guidance of the times. We may be a teacher, we may be a lawyer, we may be PSW Personal Support Worker or we may be a construction worker, we have all kinds of things that come to us and we all have our story. And a lot of this is triggers that come together and you hear stories and you get triggered by that because of your own personal story. And this is where I come in to help the the people that are that come into Facing History to walk them through that they should need help to help that they need. And they will send me emails to my email and and I reply back to them and sometimes they are just all within their own selves. They want to just keep it and put it on the table and put it in the bed under the pillow and everywhere not want to share it, you know. But you carry that everywhere you go, it's best that you share whatever's going on in your mind and in your heart, in your spirit. And this is what I'm about. That's where I fit in.

 Jessica Sass  15:13  

Yeah, can you maybe share a specific moment that stands out to you or like, with, say, an interaction with one person, during one of the many workshops that you've had that kind of made you, that affirmed why you do what you do?

 Elder Shirley  15:30  

With intention, or good mind, knowing we are all doing the best that we can and, and you know, that you can, I've been doing this work for a long time, and I can easily pick out a person that there is something going on, you can always, but you can't come out and say that to them, when we're in, when we're meeting, you may have 50 people but you know, you can always pick those people out and, and if they choose to come forward, and that's okay, they need help. But sometimes, like I said, they will come forward because they don't just want to share their own personal selves.They paint a pretty picture of themselves that- no, everything's okay. That's where I see things and we got worked, because I work with that one that gives us the breadth of life, and I'm being channeled to get the work that I need to do.

 Jessica Sass  16:24  

So what are some, what are some challenges that that come up within the work. And that could be personal challenges, or that could be just challenges that you see within working with different members, teachers.

 Elder Shirley  16:39  

Letting the teachers know that I have been on a healing and spiritual journey for many years, and to have that acceptance for myself.  Because I went to residential school for one year, they think that they should not talk to me, they put this roadblock in front of them. They're afraid they're going to hurt me. No, I can't hurt anymore. I've gone past that. I've gone to my own healing. I've went through my own healing, mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. All of that, I've had to work with that. I've had to find the guidance, I've had to talk to people, I've had to cry my eyes out. And at a place my spiritual journey began 40 years ago, maybe longer than that, I have been on my spiritual journey for a long time. So when I talk about the residential school, for me, it's it's a piece of cake. The icing on the cake, you're not going to break me. And I wish that the teachers would understand that. And that's, that's the biggest thing that I see that I continue to hear that to this day. And I wish they would get past that. But I don't know how they're going to do that themselves because I can't do it for them. And even though that they know that I've been on spiritual, spiritual journey for many years, and I have let things go. And I have learned to accept the residential school and where it was where it was at that time. And what happened to my siblings. 

 Jessica Sass  18:13  

 I'm here, I'm here. It's just the the lighting goes out to be environmentally friendly. I'm trying to turn it on.

 Elder Shirley  18:19  

Even though that my my siblings were there also, and, you know, that is their story, I can't hang on to that. It belongs to them, it doesn't belong to me. What happened to them belongs to them. And it's not up to me to, to go into that because I tried to help my siblings in that their journey, but they didn't want that help. They choose, they choose to take it to the grave with them. Even though that the opportunity was there, they were mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually and sexually abused in the system. And you know that as much as he tried to help somebody like that, you can't. They want the help when they need to. They can go see all the therapists they want and that, but it's up to this one, how much they need, how much I'm going to take. So they, they like to be in that area. Those people I believe, that are out there. They like it can't seem to get themselves out of there. As much as I'd like them to.

 Elder Shirley  19:25  

 You need to pray for them, you know, so that they can be at a place where they can find that forgiveness. You have to find the best for everything. And it's like, I always say the lifeline. We have a lifeline. Okay. This is the lifeline, are you looking at me? From the beginning of time when you're in your mom's womb, you will be here for every five years 5,10,15,20,25 and all the way up to 100 years old. It was five years you've worked here lifeline and find out what has happened to me. There's good things that happen. And there's not so good things that haven't happened. Sometimes those are more prominent in the lifeline 5,10,15,20 and all through life. But you find that as time goes on, all the good things will come your way, when you're looingking after yourself, you got to find that balance for this person, for yourself. And only you can do that. Only we can do that for ourselves. And as much as that person over there will talk to me, talk to him, tell him tell me everything that I need to know about healing. The bottom line is me. How much am I going to take, how much am I going to give? Are they gonna break me or what?

 Jessica Sass  20:49  

Yeah, your choice, you got to choose.

 Elder Shirley  20:51  

Yes, it is. And in the residential school experience does not effect me in ways that it haunts me. No, it doesn't, I have a good rest at nighttime, I have a good sleep. I don't let it haunt me. Throughout the day, if somebody just happens to talk about it in depth, I listened to them and you know, put them on a path that maybe they can think differently and about what is really going on here. And when one must need to forgive, to let go heal from the past and move forward in a good way each and every day. You have to do those and find forgiveness, you're stuck in that area. You can't move forward. It makes life easy to deal with that and able to talk about all of this to all ages and all groups. To school, school age groups from grade five to grade eight and into high school in the college students in of course, you got the adult too. They still have they're stuck in that sometimes the adults are still stuck in here. Because they their selves up along the way, they have not got rid of anything that has hurt them mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, and sexually and everything that I have done to that person, everything that person has done to me, they gotta fix those up. They're not ready to do that sometimes.

 Jessica Sass  22:17  

Yeah. And that's okay, too.

 Elder Shirley  22:20  

Yeah, that's okay, too. And when the time comes, they're ready.

 Jessica Sass  22:25  

And do you think, um, I have this conversation with Andrew yesterday about why Facing History, and his work and just partnership in working towards this idea of justice and sovereignty is so important is because it's not only about honoring past, and legacy and history and being, but it's also about looking for future like the future of his grandchildren. And, and, you know, a society that is something that he would like to see for his children, something that's, as he said, isn't really talked about or is neglected, because a lot of Western thought puts people Indigenous people speaking in the past rather than the future. And that's why he said that work is significant to him. And I was wondering.

 Elder Shirley  23:23  

So with that piece, I always when I share things like this about the residential school, which I have been doing for quite a while and I still am doing that with school children. This past month, you will have to go back in your lifeline as far back as you can go from your great great grandparents to grandparents, your mom and dad. And here I am now. Only take the good things from all that we have received from back here to where we are today. From my mom and dad's. Everything is passed on passed on generation to generation. And we don't want this for our children. So somewhere along the way, this person has to cut that, sever the cord so that my daughter and her children will not be that way. What's happened back here, that they will have a good life and not think about the past and what's happened to my Auntie's. What happened to my uncles and what happened to my grandmas and grandpas when they went to residence. We have to put a stop to that. That's my thoughts. Stop that. And so we can build on looking at things in the future in a good way for every man, woman and child and woman and child all nations and wherever we come in contact with. Even the Anishnaabe people same as I. We have to be in a mindful place. A good place to be able to move forward and not separate and keep blaming, blaming blaming, which I see is happening. I can't blame nobody for what's happened but myself because I'm a forgiving person, I have to stop that. Sometimes, I think to myself, how come people have such a hard time? Why is it they have such a hard time, but their investments going back to their own selves and to their own teachings? And sometimes they just have not severed that cord with families. They can move forward.

 Jessica Sass  25:25  

Is there a person who attributes your mindfulness and your mindset to say a specific family member ancestor or just being in living to where you are now and how you come to kind of how you think about the world? Yeah, like, Is there a specific person that you look to.

 Elder Shirley  25:49  

You know, my grandmother, her name was Chikwe. Chikwe means big woman. She wasn't not a big woman like that, you know, not woman. But that was her name Chippewa. And for me, I find I am a lot like her. Even though I have my mom, my mom was my teacher, in many ways, and that, and she played a role with my spirituality that I always grew up with, was having spirituality in my life. And same as my grandmother, she would be doing the work that I do now. She would grow open to outside the community, outside Saugeen First Nation, she's going to South Hampton, Ontario, and she would go to Owen Sound where she's been spreading her songs, her gospel songs. She'd be, you know, praising, praising the Creator God, Jesus light of life, Buddha, the one that gives us the breath of life. This is what the journey was about enlightenment. She - that's why she called her the big woman. And I feel that I myself a lot like my grandmother. And now my daughter is coming along behind me because she's going to be the one that's going to be doing this work. Yes, she's doing it right now. But she knows she's following the footsteps of her grandmother's, by her grandmother and her great grandmother. And of course, me the mom, you know? She is following those footsteps. So it's a journey, knowing that it's a wonderful place to be.

 Jessica Sass  27:27  

So I'm going to kind of shift this a little bit back to speaking about Facing History in particular. So reflecting on your experience working with a staff at Facing History, and other experiences working in partnership in other educational spaces. What about the work, or the way of working, sustains you?

 Elder Shirley  27:52  

Reflecting with the staff and Facing History staff that I work with have been working with for the past six years now. I enjoy the time with the staff. We listen, we laugh. We know each other's moments that we are not feeling well in our minds and in our hearts that something has happened with our families in that we are like a big family.We are like brothers and sisters or that we can share anything we want. But when it's time for us to come into the picture and share with the teachers and that, of course that's there, we're not going to be in a silly place like that.You know? We have this time together that we can do that: talk about our day, talk about what's happening, talk about what we've done on the weekend, with our children, and with our grandchildren. It's just time to focus in time to even focus on how we can better facing the history, if there's anything else that we need to change, so that we can make the students comfortable, the teacher is comfortable. Whoever happens to take this course, we look at those pieces of that with solutions. You know, sometimes we all need help in those areas. So we help each other in a good way. And sometimes you know, our way of thinking my way of thinking their way thinking everybody's way thinking - we all think differently. We come to a place where we're all mutual agreement that we can move forward in a good way.

 Jessica Sass  29:44  

So this isn't this isn't one of my one of my- actually, I've been diverting from a lot of my questions, but I'm not something that I something that I think about a lot and I'm 21 and I have a lot more, a lot of a lot more years ahead of me I hope. But I think about all of the good people that I meet in and out of my life. And there's some moments that are very temporary, where I know that this person might be in for a specific, you know, a certain amount of time and go out. How do you kind of reconcile or see kind of, I'm sure that you've, you've met many, many people throughout this type of work, reconcile with kind of developing or feeling a deep relationship, and then it kind of going away or manifesting in other ways as time goes on?

 Elder Shirley  30:33  

I guess you know, that, you know, we all have to learn to put that in front of us that we are not going to allow someone into our space, we know we like them. And now we know the good work that they do. And we also know that maybe this is only a one time thing that we will see that. But something, say for instance, you, maybe there's something about this meeting today that that's going to resonate with me, and that's going to stay with me. And that is meant for me to carry. And maybe the other pieces will be as much. But there's always that one thing that you can take with you that you'll carry that piece. And maybe one day, you'll pick up some more pieces from our conversation and say, Oh, yes, you can come up now I'm ready for you in that, you know? That's how, that's how it works for me. Because if you continue to, if I was to continue in, in the area of really making myself feel that I really like these people. And if they should go out of my life, and that I'm going to be so sad. I'm going to be crying. I'm going to be so lost and that I don't mean that area.  But the wisdom and goodness and that they will thrive no matter where they are just like I'm going to move forward that I I have planted seeds with them that they need to help them grow and that they will take those with that they or we will take with us. 

 Jessica Sass  32:19  

So can you discuss a little bit about what it's like working in collaboration, again, with Facing History, in particular, in working with others on whether that be developing kind of the developing curriculum or specific programming? And what have you gained? And like, what are some limitations, potential limitations, if any, in working and collaborating with others?

 Elder Shirley  32:49  

Um, which number are we at? Which number? 

 Jessica Sass  32:54  

Ten

 Elder Shirley  32:55  

Which number? Are we working on? 10? Number 10. Working on ten. But I just want to go back to number nine Stolen Lives and Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls.

 Jessica Sass  33:09  

Yeah, of course, I'm kind of jumping places.

 Elder Shirley  33:12  

I continue to do my opening and closing with those pieces and send the blessings needed in those areas. And, we all walk with others in that area that are doing the same kind of work. So I continue to do my work in those areas. And just like this, December the sixth, I believe, I'll be doing another opening and closing for the Pali Institute, the massacre that happened in Montreal, Quebec 1989, I think it is. I'll be doing a prayer for that piece, also, maybe a poem or something I have not. I have not figured out Oh, I know, I need to do that. But I know it's always fair. And I get to a place where first thing in the morning is my time that I can work through that. Okay, this day, I'm going to do that. So I'm open. And I can do that piece that. So I'm prepared when the time comes that I can do this work and it's already in place. So with that, you know, I do a lot of work in many places and not so that's one of the questions that was asked. So I That's my what my answer is to that. But working in a team we work together don't always agree. I think we'll talk about that. But we always come up with a solution that is going to benefit everyone in a good way. In the end.

 Jessica Sass  34:42  

Yeah, so in terms of just Just to follow up on that. When you write or think it is in the morning, what's the significance of the morning for you?

 Elder Shirley  34:53  

See, I do well, I do my prayers in the morning, and my mind is still fresh. and nothing has come into my space. That I can think in a good way. That my mind is open, that I am open to whatever be is being channeled to me for that piece that I'm working on. That it's going to fit into whatever it is I'm going to be saying. And it's always that the power of prayer is wonderful. I hope that you aren't yourself doing that because it starts your day in a good way. Because if you don't, your day could be a chaotic all day long. Then you wonder why is everything upside down? Why is this happening? Plus, because you have not put your intention out there that you will have a good day, start your day in a good way, even though you don't know sometimes what to say, no one knows. Sometimes you have to say miigwech, which in my language means Miigwech, thank you. Thank you, thank you, that's four directions, thank you. And that one upstairs already knows what we're being thankful for. And what we're asking for. So that's how my day starts and each and everything, so I can do my work to put my papers down. Or late in the evening, when it's all nice and quiet in the house and the TV's not on, that nothing is on. I come to a place where I need to sit and go over my work and  be able to do my prep work and move from there. But then you're ready for bed, you just ready you just like I say you have to I do my smudging. And that when I asked for that clearance that I need, I can see things in a good way, hear things in the good way, and speak those kind and gentle words that need to be heard.  We're not here to heart anyone you know?

 Jessica Sass  36:56  

Thank you, So I'm going to move on a bit. So this is a little bit different, I guess shifting, shifting a little bit. On number 12. So just look, let's talk first more broadly. What does the idea of justice or like justice mean for you?

 Elder Shirley  37:19  

I guess you know, equality is so important in that area, that we have to have equality in everything that we do. And change our way of thinking, sometimes our way of thinking is so rigid, we need to open ourselves up and have that acceptance that we need, that new things are coming forward. And to look at things in a good way. Because we all learn each and every day from all sorts of educators and whether we meet them on the street, in the store, or anywhere, there's always those seeds that are being planted. And now we watched  them grow for ourselves so that we can spend that time also to find that good place that we need to all be, and to think about the cultural aspect of it. And to have that open, because the culture itself is so broad that everybody has that. And we need to have that acceptance, that yes, they are doing their work. And we're all in the circle of life. And we all need together. We all need each other so that we can do this work here. I need something from over here in the eastern direction, I need something from the western direction, so that I can move forward. So it's always reaching out all those little hubs that are there reaching for them, so that we can be in a place where we need to be at.

 Jessica Sass  38:55  

What does the idea of justice mean, in the context of education, or in the context of/in collaboration with children or youth.

 Elder Shirley  39:07  

I guess we just finished saying I just finished saying, you know, it's about having respect. You have to respect. If you don't have respect for yourself, how can you possibly have respect for all nations, all those children, all those men, women and children in the world. But, you don't have respect for them, this is one of our seven grandfather teachings. We have to have respect for ourselves first, so that we can spread respect to other people in that in all the work that we do. Sometimes we don't like what's going on, but we still have to have that respect. And maybe we need to plant a seed what that means. And hopefully that it grows. It's about respect, always caring. And if we don't have respect, we better start working on it because that is one of the things and all the seven grandfather teachings that we do we carry is in the Bible, but we call them the seven grandfather teachings, and to live by those each and every day, because that's a big piece that's missing in our lives now. Everybody, not only my people, not only myself, I've been working on my seven grandfather teachings, you can adopt all of them until you have. If you don't know what love is, you better learn what love is because love is unconditional in many ways in that. And to know that so you can have love for every man, woman and child that you need. You have to know what love is. So you can spread the love. And watch it grow. At first, you gotta love yourself. We

 Jessica Sass  40:51  

Can you talk a bit more about what those seven teachings are?

 Elder Shirley  40:57  

The seven teachings. Yeah, you know, you have to be brave. You have to be brave. You have to have bravery in all that you do. In all that you do, you can't go hide under the covers or anything like that and start hiding things and whatnot, you can't do that. We have to be brave and face the challenges that come forward. Sometimes we don't like what's going on. But we need to move with that. And not stay stuck. And you will find the help that you need in those areas. And love, the humility and humility, you have to have -- there's so many different ones. I just did one recently there and it has all of them on there which has the seven grandfather teachings you will find those internet seven grandfather teachings, it's called with the sacred teachings and that. And usually, when you know those teachings, you can adopt those, and you can walk this world in a good way. And all that we do. But it's always going looking after this one first  . And you have to tell the truth. Because the truth, when you tell the truth, like the Truth and Reconciliation. When we bring the when we bring the Elders in to talk, they're telling the truth. When I speak to the students now and when they hear from me it's not they're not looking at a book, they're not looking reading a paper, they're not listening to a teacher. They're actually hearing it from a survivor. These students really like that. So I hope that you know that all schools will find it. I don't know how many people left that's going to survive. And but somebody is back to pick up these tools also, so that they can teach the children. Spoken the truth. We're not telling a lie. This is the truth. This is what happened to me. You know, this is coming from the real person.

 Jessica Sass  43:11  

Yeah. And that's why I think it's so important. So what what made me start kind of looking at this, this question began from me, I'm sorry, the light keeps turning off. I'm in editing studio right now at school. And they're trying to be environmentally conscious with their, like timing and not having movement.

 Jessica Sass  43:34  

Something that brought me to this question was within Facing History, I was wondering who, who creates their, their curriculum, their supplemental curriculum? Do they work with people who have first hand accounts? Or do they work with higher education? 

 Elder Shirley  43:53  

I'm sure that they have somebody that they follow and up from the beginning of time, like looking at 16 years, I don't question all that I'm being brought into the Elder.

 Jessica Sass  44:05  

So I learned that so I learned that why I was so interested in Canada's because they model off of this, they model differently, the rest of the organization where they…

 Elder Shirley  44:16  

And that's the only way we can move it. Right? We need somebody it's all those hubs out there. We need to reach out and say what worked for me and unsure that must have did the same things themselves. They must have found it someplace, you know, it's like, really safe for for sure what how that started, but I say I was brought in to be the Elder in this place. So that's, that's the work that I do. I know for a fact that people and a lot of places, other places where I work, we work with a lot of hubs to be able to go in this piece place and go over here. Maybe we need something from here. So when we create this beautiful land, maybe maybe we're working on a piece of land that we're going to see, prosper, that we're going to have a whole bunch of units there for all ages, and even a place for the Elders and now, and gardens and things like that, we all have to reach out. Just all the way here, you know, we all have to reach out so I'm sure that you know that Facing History is probably the same. 

 Jessica Sass  45:33  

So I am kind of altering this question, based off of what you said, but how do you-  my initial question was, how do you try to serve, reach, achieve reach for justice and curriculum and in that you co develop or in programming, and I think that you, you've responded to that by leading with respect, and, and love, which I think is at the core of all of this. So I don't know if there's anything that you'd like to expand on, on what it means to respect yourself, or lead with love loving one another?

 Elder Shirley  46:09  

Facing history, I really think a lot of I'm really thankful that they have developed this Stolen Lives, and bringing that out in the open. This, this here was never talked about before. But now it's an open. This has, even in my community, it's only in the past five years that we start talking about this, we've never talked about this before. So now it's out in the open and we're able to talk about with Facing History, to our leaders the ones that are doing the work that come on Facing History, when they come online to do the modules and, and the teachers there, they have they're fearful. They have their own fears, you know, because they don't know if they're doing the right thing. They are just reading from a book, you're reading what they can teach the children and that and they come on here, they learn a little bit more. They have to have to face their own fears and that. The fear of the unknown as to why couldn't do this, right? Or am I going to upset somebody? Or am I going to hurt somebody, and we go to those places, it's so easy to do that. But as people, you know, we're, if you're a forgiving person, you know, we're all human, we make mistakes, I'm not perfect. I make mistakes just like everybody else. But you know, you have to come back to a place where it's going to be safe for everyone, that you are doing the right thing that you are planting the seeds in a good way so that you will watch it grow and that the teachers will be more accepting for themselves that they can handle this, yes, I can do it. And we had a good place.

 Jessica Sass  47:59  

What does safety mean to you and in your practice and in just giving so much as, as an Elder and as a keeper of knowledge? What are ways in which teachers or someone like me could support you and have like a truly reciprocal relationship?

 Elder Shirley  48:22  

I don't really know personal stories of each teacher or each each person that comes online and that I don't know,  their story and, and you just hope and pray that you know that they are doing their work in a good way each and every day. That they will look after themselves first. So when they get to this school, that everything will be okay. That they can do their work about talking about Facing History that they are okay where they are at. And that sometimes we may have Native students in there, sometimes you're not gonna agree, but then again, sometimes the students will only know what was what they heard from home. Which is not always, it's always negative in there, we don't need those pieces in there. The negative will always be there. But we need to think in a positive way that things all things are going to turn around for each and every one of us. And same as the teachers itself, you know that that they will do this in a good way to teach their students in that and in the student may have all kinds of questions and that you will will be able to answer those questions and not have that fear. But sometimes that fear is our own triggers. Also, we get triggered by many things. It's my own triggers. Maybe I wasn't good enough when I was growing up. Maybe I didn't do my books the way they wanted me to. And those are triggers and we carry those. If we have not worked with them. It is difficult to get rid of those but we we are mindful that we can do it, we can do it, you know, set that aside and say, Yes, I can do it. We want to pass things on to all students. 

 Jessica Sass  50:11  

And I think that something that's really interesting about Facing History is their model is based off of teaching teachers, rather than teaching teachers who teach students, you know, ultimately, rather than teaching students directly. So I'm curious what you think of kind of that model of working directly with teachers. And then you know, them and then them learning and then giving that knowledge or sharing that knowledge and working on themselves and then working with other teachers.

 Elder Shirley  50:45  

I guess the people that are doing this, they're doing, they're doing that work and doing the best that they can, then they're so knowledgeable of all the history and everything, you know, it's going back from the time. Beginning of time, 100, over 100 years ago, when the first settlers came here, that we have to start from, and if you any, you have to know the history of all the years and what happened to arrive at a place with space with the residential school piece itself, in order to understand we just can't go right into residential school, and start talking about that. We have to know the history back here. All those years, this is what happened when Christopher Columbus came across, this is what happened when they started trading and whatnot. And this is what happened to the natives, and all that you have to do all that history in order to move forward with the with Facing History itself. And, and teaching both the Stolen Lives. We have to be at a place where we can reflect all the time, and the teachers may have missed a piece of that themselves. If you're not a historian, like me, you may have missed a piece. But I'm really glad to work that I I really enjoy the history now. Because in my time, I didn't care to hear about Christopher Columbus, you know, it's, it wasn't important to me at the I don't know why because I was not history. But anyway, now that I, I do this piece, I really enjoy it. And it's, it's quite, it's like the United Church of Canada, they have the blanket of exercise that they do. And I'm really grateful for that piece, because I have worked with the United Church of Canada, on the blanket exercise. And that takes you to the all the provinces in all over Ontario, Canada, all the way to East and West. And everyplace in between, and all those First Nations people, and then you will have all those on the floor will have blankets on the floor. I don't know if you know anything about this blanket exercise.

 Jessica Sass  52:55  

Yeah I actually do. So there's an Elder, she actually just passed away unfortunately- her name was Julia Bogany, where I am we're on Tongva Land. And she adopted the blanket exercise, but get more suitable, like within her own Tongva traditions, and they practice it here on on our college campus and surrounding areas as well. But it's a little bit different.

 Elder Shirley  53:25  

Yes, yes. And you know, there again, you know, it's like, Facing History, we're taking from the blanket exercise to be able to create this paper so I can work with the schools in that. And I am at that point myself that I need to do that because I have a blanket exercise that I need to do in January, February at one of the schools. So I don't hold a certificate for the blanket exercise with United Church of Canada. So I'm going to have to improvise. So that syllable from suitable for my areas, ah I its like stealing off of them, you know, that's what it feels like. But you know, and I know people that I've worked with, and they're okay with that piece that I do that. So you know, it's coming to you. And I think that for myself, I think it's very good that they teach this blanket exercise. Because it's takes you back from the beginning of time to where we are today, and how our communities have gotten smaller and what's happened to us. And then now we've got the residential school piece. And now you see what's happening there to to our people in that and how this has happened here and now we need to move forward in that.

 Jessica Sass  54:47  

Yeah, I think that it's really interesting because obviously with Canada's having a reckoning right now, with all of the bodies that were uncovered at residential schools and really just like our world, you know, in, in America too. There's a reckoning happening around racial justice that, you know, long overdue all of us as long overdue. But I wonder, how do you believe that this type of kind of, quote on quote, political recognition of atrocities that were committed in the past will help, like push the agenda towards justice forward? Do you think that this reckoning that's happening right now will have long term effects? 

 Elder Shirley  55:43  

I was really sad when I first heard, when I first heard how many bodies were found, really, in my heart, in my mind, in my spirit. I was at a place where I just cried. To think that these children were buried in some place, unknown, and that their families, their mums, and dads, grandmas, and grandpas, and all their relations, did not know where they were, they never saw them for a long period of time, and they know, they know that they're dead. And you know, how sad is that? You know, how sad it is? You know?. And then to find that peace, it's like you have, I had to move from that. And be in prayer, and be honest with myself, so that I don't have this kind of feeling that I'm really sad and crying and whatnot, to place where I don't want to be. What I saw, the day that we did our ceremony, gathering the stuff, that's not the end, there's more, and the numbers growing, and it's not the end. It may never be the end. This is going to be here for a long period of time. Maybe it'll just still be going on after I'm gone. You know, it is what it is. And I really don't know how they're going, how the government or anyone's going to fix that. Because even the amount of money that they talk about in that it's not gonna fix the problem, you know? No amount of money is going to fix any problem in the world, that that has gone through all sorts of things. Even the Black people, the Jewish people, all the people in Toronto, what's going on with them over there? Or even in Vancouver, what's going on over there? It's not going to any amount of money is not going to fix that problem. The problem has to come from here, that we have to move in a good way with ourselves mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually, that we can think in that way with verything. That's, that's my thoughts say, I don't know, but that's where I'm at.

 Jessica Sass  58:04  

Yeah, and I don't I don't think that there's an answer. How does Facing History align with your personal values and views on education and justice?

 Elder Shirley  58:25  

Facing history, my personal values. It comes with telling the truth and not just reading from a book, like I said, before, hearing some a survivor and changes that changes the mind. Changes your way of thinking, instead of reading from a book all the time. It changes your way of thinking, when you actually hear a survivor. And you know, you can listen to a survivor. One survivor can have mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually sexually abused. From the time they're a little girl, or from the time they're a little boy to, to the time that there may be still in the school. Their abuse through all that system. And it takes a long time for them to, some of them never heal from that. They take that to the grave with them, like I said before, it's it's a hard place to be. And when they tell their story, they bring it out back there are in tears that they still feel that inside. They can still visualize what's really happened to them and not. And this is one part I truly believe that you know, that the teachers that's my thoughts. If they really don't understand the sexual abuse part as to what really happened to the students. And I think that they're someone that would have a hard time with that if they don't know that. The only thing that they could do is listen to survivor. And then another survivor, you could have another survivor. Their story will be different to each survivor has their own story and what happened to them. And the next survivor, may have been just as abused, abused, abused, abused.  And you know that. So when they, when they're out of the school system, that they, they come out of there and they choose an abuser. They will choose either as their partner, and their children will be abusers. So the cycle has to be broken someplace along the way, so that we're not doing this. And you know, that the teachers hear this. What's saying that they don't already know that abuse amongst their own family, maybe that's been going on. Okay, it's kept it hidden themselves. We don't tell anybody this stuff, we keep it hidden. So, you know, with the triggers from all of us, and these are things that eat away at a person, they talk about it. So I don't know that those pieces about the teachers and that and how much what their story is about, their own personal stories are about. You know, but our stories, my story, your story, anybody's story, we will have to go into that and make a clear path for ourselves. That we will have a good day today that nothing's gonna we're not gonna put it under the bed or taking the bed with us. Put it in the cupboards and leave there. Hope nobody finds it, you know? Yeah.

 Jessica Sass  1:01:55  

Facing History's curriculum, or how they develop content in this kind of co-collaborative way can be replicated. Do you think the process in which Facing History forged a relationship with you can be replicated in other spaces. 

 Elder Shirley  1:02:20  

I found this one to be a hard one. all over Ontario, Canada, survivors have their own stories. Every person, every man, woman, and child that went there, they all have their own stories. And the impact that had on it had on them continues in their personal life, to this day. Unless you got the healing for yourself. It won't hurt as much. You know, you have to go through healing so many times before it actually leaves you. But can you talk about it's not going to hurt as much as the first time. You just say there's I'm not talking about this anymore. You know, it hurts too much. It's too painful. Nightmares are gonna need to lay down all night, I got a blare the radio, put the TV on, all that kind of stuff kicks in. It's not until you start working with yourself that you will be doing this, that you will have a good sleep at night. Those are sensitive issues. For each person, they're very sensitive. Facing History to replicate, I believe that the Facing History should have a say in this. I say we're the ones who started this in the beginning with Facing History that we are working with now. If that's their ownership of that, but I do believe that they have, they should have a say. It's my thoughts. You know, this is what comes to me. I may be wrong.

 Jessica Sass  1:03:57  

Yeah. You're offering your perspective. Well, yeah, well, that was that was my last question here. But I'm wondering, is there anything that you'd like to add any, anything that you'd like to contribute before? Our time is over, and I just want to say I really appreciate your time. And you and it's so nice being on the screen. I wish that we were in person but

 Elder Shirley  1:04:30  

Yeah, that'd be nice. 

 Jessica Sass  1:04:32  

It makes it special though, because I'm so far anyway, so it's nice to be here.

 Elder Shirley  1:04:38  

We've done a good job. I truly believe you've done a good job and like my truth is my truth is and I don't I don't bring anything else that's not that's not truthful. Everything that comes out of my mouth is the truth. And and we'll just see where it goes from there. See what grows from there. And it's good because Facing History is growing and growing and growing. And  I truly believe that we're at a place myself, this is my thoughts, that, you know, extra help is needed now. We can't do it all, by ourselves. That's my thoughts. So when I sit back and watch things happening in that, and there's only so many people on there, we can't- we're rush, rush, rush, rush all the time, that we need people just to do this piece, and bring this piece out, and be comfortable and be okay with that. Just like I do my piece, I'm here for you. I can do this piece. I can let you know, if you need help, I'm here for you. I can walk you through that. So that you will be in a good place tomorrow that you are not in tears, you are not being angry or not being mad. Because you're going to be working with students and you need to be doing that to the students. Because you know, you work with students, we pick that up that way, just by your tone of your voice, by the way, we look at everything. The way we talk to them, the way we look at them. And things to them, they sit down, they are so smart those those children, the youth. So that's my thoughts on that. And hopefully, that things will work out for you in a good way. And I say these words, thank you. And I hope I have helped you in some way with your with either thesis in that. And if there's something in there that you feel that should not be in there, you can take it out. Okay with that. There's pieces you don't want us I'm okay with that.

 Jessica Sass  1:06:52  

Yeah, and I'm also wondering if there's any you mentioned, like some songs that you carry with you that have helped you throughout, like healing processes, or any, if there's any other kind of form of art, or that's beyond kind of just like our conversation that you'd like to share with me poems, song, anything, feel free to email, and I'd love to include that as well. 

 Elder Shirley  1:07:16  

 I'll think of things that I will send to you.

 Jessica Sass  1:07:20  

I'd love to see them. Yes.

 Elder Shirley  1:07:23  

And it's some I would really recommend that, you know, for things like this, that to have a live person like myself, come forward, you will find those people out there, you will find those Elders out there. They don't have to be Elders, the ones that have gone through. You can be 50 years old to be an Elder. But you don't have to do the ceremony in order for you to be an Elder. Because you're 50 you're an Elder, but you're a different kinds of an Elder. You're an Elder that likes to play games, your Elder that likes to play bingo, your Elder that likes to go shopping, or the Sallyends and things like that. Then you've got this other Elder that's in the spiritual way that walks the spiritual path and leads it to a place where you're going to find that comfort that you need. Because we all need that. I need that from sometimes my way of thinking, I know I'm thinking in the right way. And that, you know, sometimes you just need that extra boost in that. So you have an Elder that comes in to help you with that. Or someone that's a spiritual mind that thinks a lot like you that will walk you through this. And you say to yourself, I know that I'm doing the right thing. Yes, I just needed that little bit of shove. You know? So to bring that Elder in this to for anything that the schools do it even the public schools, the public schools, that's who I'm working with right now, this past month, that's who we've been working with, and grade five to great eight, they learned so much. They learned so much. And they're very grateful, they asked questions, and it's a never ending thing. And then of course, you've got the high school. Then you've got your seniors that you work with. And you're teaching them also because they've missed that piece themselves. And they're growing up, they've never ever seen this, because you yourself could be a teacher to your own parents, because they've never heard this before. It begins to grow, their minds begin to grow. And we all think in a good way that we see things differently and think differently. Yes, I understand that understanding that we need for ourselves, and so others that we can pass it on. Thank you so much. 

 Jessica Sass  1:09:52  

Well thank you so much. It's so nice speaking with you.