Full Interview

Transcript 

Jessica Sass  0:00  

Recording. And then if I can just get your verbal consent to be recorded, visually/ audio and also know that at any time feel free as you know, you don't have to answer any questions or you can pick apart stuff, let me know after if there's anything that you'd like me to remove. I'd love to use your name but I'm also I welcome if you would prefer me not using your name, I'm happy to take that out and give you an alias for another name just so you're in charge of whatever is most comfortable.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  0:41  

So I give you my verbal consent to record me and to transcribe me and to capture me, you know, in the electronic methods that are our are going to assist in the, you know, the outcome of this project.  And you are allowed to use my name and I'd like you to use both my name, my English name and my spirit name and all. I'll tell you how to spell that as well. So ani Misheeken ndodem, Shkode Neegaan Wawaaskonen, Shawanaga n’doonji Anishinaabe Kwe Ojibwe Potawatomi ndow. I am known as Anishinaabe traditional grandmother, Kim Wheatley, and I carry the spirit name Shkoden Neegaan Waawaaskonen. Now those are three words, that is my true name. And I am a Turtle Clan and Bear Clan. And I think that those are important components of this dialogue. And because they're my true identity, and it's where my responses and my perceptions will come through.

Jessica Sass  2:06  

Okay, thank you so much, so since you already gave me your name,, what are your pronouns?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  2:13  

So I use the pronoun she/her because I identify as a life giver in this life walk. And life givers are female.

Jessica Sass  2:31  

Great, and how are you doing today?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  2:35  

I'm excited about the share. You know, it's, I'm excited to extol my many years of experience with Facing History in a meaningful way, hoping that it will actually go somewhere that helps to manifest and support real change for what we consider or are currently calling education.

Jessica Sass  2:57  

Thank you. And before I go into my questions, this is an off script question that I think is really important to ask that I actually thought about when speaking with Leora is something that I've been trying to practice more in my writing is leaving space for acknowledgement. For the people that came before me, for the shoulders that I'm standing on. Whether that these loved ones, mentors, educators, friends, and giving them a name and giving them a reason how they're connected to me. So I'm wondering, I just wanted to make space before we begin, if there's anyone or anything, doesn't have to be human, even that you'd like to kind of focus some of your energy towards and if you'd like to share who that person is, or who that thing is and how you hoped for that to carry you throughout this this time together or how it has carried you and how you carried them.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  4:03  

How beautiful, how beautiful is that off script right now. So I'm going to be participating in heart speak, I'm going to not talk from my head. I'm going to be talking from my heart's space and that is the channel for ancestors who have gone on before me and descendants who have yet to arrive on the planet. And I carry the spirit name head or leader of the Fire Flower. That's my true name. I carry Kim Wheatley is that you know the kind of standard government issue. But in carrying that name, I cannot move forward and I am always informed by creation itself. And I you know, who I want to acknowledge it are all of the sands,  the soils, the clays, the gravels, the rocks, the stone beings in the mountains. These are the most ancient beings on earth and the ones we refer to as grandmothers and grandfathers and on this day, I thank them. I thank them for being here. I thank them for holding all of that wisdom and knowledge. I thank them for continuing to, you know, hold our beautiful earth mother together and help me in this day have a sense of grounding, feeling grounded. 

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  5:08  

And then the second order of creation that I'd love to acknowledge would be all of the grasses, the shrubs, the trees, the bushes, the hardwoods, the softwoods, the berries, the hanging fruits, and all of the medicines. This plant world is the one that gave me my spirit name, Head or Leader of the Fire Flower. And they're the ones that nourish my body on a daily basis, protect me from the elements. Provide medicines for ceremonial engagements like today, but also, you know, they provide, they provide beauty for our senses. And I appreciate that. And so I thank them on this day.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  5:39  

And I want to also acknowledge the third order of creation, which would be all the swimmers, the crawlers, the fliers, the two legs, four legs, those of us in the sky world, and those that live beneath the earth. Now, these beautiful beings are our clan, brothers and sisters, they're our teachers, our food source, ourare companions. And it's hard not on a daily basis, you know, to be whole and present here, without their sacrifices, without their teachings. And so on this day, I want to acknowledge them and give them greetings and thanks.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  6:09  

 And of course, I want to acknowledge the human family and all the shapes, sizes, colors, and identities that we arrive in. Without my human family, we wouldn't be having this engagement, and we're meant to be parts connected, you know, units connected parts of community. And so this privilege today to be able to come here is only possible because somebody brought me to this earth. And so, you know, my ancestors, my mom and dad, and grannies and grandpas and great grannies, and grandpas, and so forth, all the way back. And then of course, all my descendants are kind of a validation of the kind of life that I have led, and will continue to lead andthe kind of contributions that can be supported, because we have this sense of community. And then the very basic things like earth, air, fire and water that really give us life. Yeah, they are the integral components of life itself for all those orders of creation, but for us ourselves as well. And so I always acknowledge this as a collective, not as individual pockets or units, I think in a very cyclical manner. And I speak in a very connected way that, you know, breathes life into the gratitude being expressed, but also the fact that they are, they are beings in their own right, with the ability to reflect, respond and embrace the words that have been spoken.

Jessica Sass  7:35  

Beautiful, thank you. And on that and honoring everything that does exist and has existed, is there anything that you'd like to put forth into the future in the next minute? Now that we are in the future? I guess you could say, as you know.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  7:57  

So time doesn't stand still right now. Still. Yeah. So what I'm hoping is, as we move forward, that we'll do this with a good heart and a good mind in a good way, leaving better than when we came. You know, when we came together.

Jessica Sass  8:11  

Great, thank you. Okay, so I'm looking again, well, this is all beginning. In we're in the constant state of beginning is what I say. So what was your first experience or introduction to Facing History?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  8:28  

Ah, well, it's kind of a personal story. But it's an important story, because I don't think I'd be where I am in relation to Facing History without this kind of moment, this moment of introduction. And so my first connection in a kind of distant way to Facing History was through Leora Schaefer, and I met her at an event and she was having a difficult time with something and we ended up outside at the same time with the synchronistic connection. I was in a kind of Elder role of offering support to the participants in this big teacher gathering that was really I know, they intended it well, but it just didn't turn out well. And she went out to get some fresh air, but just had a bit of a crack about whatever happened and I was able to support her. And I feel like my presence there actually had purpose. And through that connection, I got an invitation to, to come in and do a little something with Facing History. And it just snowballed. There was a synchronicity there was an acceptance of long term intended service to the greater good. So like how do we change the world? We can change the world one heart at a time by ensuring that we're thinking about what serves people in a meaningful way, which also supports balance in harmony, but also comes from a good place. You know, there's a lot of things and certain people come from a good place. And my goal is always to leave you feeling better than when you arrived. I want to change the world, one heart at a time. So does Facing History, from a truth space, not from a deliverable space, or it's always heart connected, it's always heart centered, they speak from the heart, and everybody who gets to be an employee or work with them, that that blooms. Whether it's the attendees, or whether it's, the facilitators themselves, or whether it's kind of the the beautiful loving structure of what Facing History is. It's because its foundation lies on so much truth and integrity, it's almost flawless sometimes in how it goes about doing things. And I recognize thatthat bar of excellence, because that's what I want in my own life. And so for me, meeting them, and then working with them, has been a seamless, mutually gratifying experience in some ways, but a relationship of honor, I have a high level of honor, where I can see people who, who are like me, that are not from my nation, you know not from my culture. And yet, it doesn't make a difference, because we get that, that human connection first. That's brilliant to me. So, you know, that's how I met them. And that's kind of how and why I continue to stay with them. Is because that's who they are. And there's no deviation, it's so solidly connected and consistent. It's amazing. And they're one of the only organizations I work with who operate like that.

Jessica Sass  12:03  

Was there a specific moment that you knew, or was it a specific feeling that you knew that it was going to be a long term relationship?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  12:15  

There are many moments, not just one, there are many, many moments. It's in the preparation. So I'm always given details in the way that I digest, understanding an event. And I'm always given respect for the cultural practices and values that are important in the work that I do, because I live in a very traditional way. And I tried to follow our teachings and our protocols, and just possible, and where people don't know fill in the gaps, you know. And they've been so welcoming in, embracing Oh, we didn't understand that. Well, thank you for helping us and so and then it helps me. Because then I'm 100% in in terms of my game, when I come. I try to like there's just so many moments where they've held space, or allowed extra time because I haven't completed the thought, or I needed a moment, you know, to gather myself because I have a life outside of the work that I do as well. And sometimes it can be really impactful. They've been there in the personal professional moments, in very human ways. I never feel like Facing History is a business, even though it is. You never get the sense that that's what it's about. You always get the sense that there's this great care and commitment to enlightenment, to enrichment to empowerment, to better for everyone, no matter what role you're holding. So I never feel like there's a sense of hierarchy within the organization. And hierarchy sometimes creates this sense of diminishment like you're less than you just hired and or whatever. I always feel a sense of equality working with them. So it's really hard to pinpoint one instant because it's a consistent instant. It happens all the time if that makes sense to you.

Jessica Sass  14:19  

Yeah, of course. Yeah, so just for me to get more of a handle on when you began working with Facing History, how many years ago is that?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  14:39  

Maybe six years ago. I'm terrible with time to be honest. But it's been quite a long time. I'm trying to think what job I was doing at the time when I first met them because as a consultant, I've been doing consulting for about 30 years. But it was kind of a side thing for me at one point. And then, I've held the nine to five, like lots of people. And I'd say at least six years or more. So how old is Facing History? Do you know?

Jessica Sass  15:17  

I'm not sure how Facing History itself is. The Canadian component?

Kim Wheatley  15:25  

Yeah. Because you have an American version, right?

Jessica Sass  15:28  

Yeah, I think it's, it's for sure, over a decade, but not two decades? I think it was about 13 years ago.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  15:39  

Ask Leora, she will remember. Sure. Yeah. I feel like I've been with them forever. And I feel like I want to be with them forever. Yeah, that's a real vague answer. But it has been a long time. It's been many years.

Jessica Sass  15:55  

And how have you seen? I don't necessarily want to call it a role just because like, what we do is so fluid. But how have you seen your Yeah, for lack of better words “role”, change over time? Or your own pedagogical approach to the work, how has that changed over the last however many years?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  16:23  

That's a great question. Because it has grown, and it is measurable. So initially, I was invited into do traditional openings and closing and just really set the tone of Indigenous representation, but just protocol as well, we're going to engage in a good way. And,I was always accessed in a supportive role. So in case somebody had difficulty, cuz we're talking about hard topics, we're talking about hard things like hard realities. So to provide that kind of cultural supportive role using the medicines and having a safe space to maybe come in offload or cry or whatever might be going on for you. And that role still continues, I still access a lot in that way. But I've also been a presenter. I've also been a co event coordinator of things. I've been co lead and in some of the event planning. I've been more in a leadership role as a presenter like a keynote, in a way, on a specific Indigenous kind of conversations. I've been a consultant in all the capacities of consultant has consulted. I've also been kind of, on a personal side, a support for staff as they try and navigate different things. We've had beautiful speakers over the years pass on. And it's been tragic for us, because there's such an intimacy in the relationships of people who work through Facing History. I don't know what it's like on the American side. But on the Canadian side, there's an intimacy there where you feel like you are family, and you are treated like family. And so any loss, any absence, any kind of unfortunate thing that might happen, not just to you, but in your larger circles, like maybe your community. There was an outpouring of care and deliberation on how best to support in some way in some meaningful way, navigation of that. And soin different ways, I've experienced that as well.

Jessica Sass  18:54  

And, all these questions are again, you know, an offering, so you don't have to answer them. But I'm wondering, in return, how have you felt held over the years with Facing History? Or supported or nutured?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  19:10  

Well, I've certainly felt heard. A lot of people will engage with me, but they don't hear me. They already have their own ideas about what they're going to do, and they just want me to fit in a slot. And I never feel like a slot with Facing History. I feel heard. And I see responsive action based on perhaps, dialogues we've had or suggestions I've made or observations that I have held. And there's been a respect for that, where I'm not being judged, and I don't feel judged in return. And for me, it's a validation. I only do this work because there is room for it. For as long as people want to know about our world then I'm in service, but if there ever comes a time where people just don't want it anymore. What will I do? This is what drives me, I am a mother and a grandmother. I experienced great hardship in the so-called educational system that basically kept me in a state of being silenced, embarrassed, ashamed, and invisible in lots of instances, right?  So when I think about all the years, I've experienced it, and then I watched my children and my grandchildren experience the same thing like three living generations going through the same nonsense, and a so-called education system. That has not been challenged until most recently, but it has not taken responsibility forits very blatant absences and historic amnesia. So, what happens for me in working with Facing History, is I see those gaps being filled. I see efforts to not become static, but to become life-filled. They're constantly evolving, to do better. And that's what I'm doing. I want to be the best that I can be. So how can I do that? What can I do? What platform can I have? And how can I develop that meaningfully and Facing History puts me in a position of educating educators, which is a powerful positioning. Sometimes I work with the educated themselves, but mostly it's with the educators. And they're the first line of entry into making change, in an institutionalized environment that is completely resistant to it. They don't want to change. And yet, Facing History is an interface for me to be able to say: this is why you can change, this is how you can change. This is how it can feel. This is what it can sound like. This is what it can feel like in tangible ways that you can carry away and you can remember, and you can actually do. So there is an empowerment that happens through Facing History. For me, that is very meaningful.  And I never get that impression from Facing History. Even if they're really busy, they will pause and give me an hour and at times the most precious gift we can give to another and you want to spend your time well, I'm one person, I'm not a business. I'm a traditional grandmother, I'm one person. And maybe I'm a bit old school, but I like phone calls. I like zooms. I like to see your face. I like to have a coffee and and just openly discuss an idea and explore like, Am I hearing straight? Am I feeling this? Right? Is this what you're asking for? Is this what I can providein finding the synchronicity so that it's a good fit, but it's a validation for my life walk itself. I'm not gonna be here forever. I need spaces and places to give. I can give with Facing History without censoring myself. So it's been amazing.

Jessica Sass  23:45  

That's great. That's great to hear. This just all affirms why I believe in the organization and hope to have a long term connection.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  23:58  

You will, once they loop you in you can't get out. They love you. Who wants to leave love. It's a big love fest.

Jessica Sass  24:08  

I was actually introduced to Facing History when I was 15, one of their program staff came to my school and we kept in touch and now he's been a long term mentor and friend for the past seven years now, which is crazy. You talked about this breifly, but what are some challenges that come up in the work, that come up in working with Facing History or other organizations like Facing History that have so much heart and thoughtfulness?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  24:44  

There are definitely issues. I'm a human being first and we're talking about a really terrible history for Jewish communities, but for Indigenous communities as well. And we weave together some of the similarities, but there are individual stories here. And so some of the difficulties I have are commonly not being triggered myself in being asked to share my story in relationship to what we're exploring. I have many relatives who went to residential school and I have many relatives who suffered enormous harms almost unspeakable in that they can't speak to them. I have that intergenerational trauma. I have that blood memory. I have the challenge of using a language that doesn't adequately word clothe, sometimes what you're trying to say. Sometimes standing in front of a group of teachers, I don't have that moment to kind of be human. I have an expectation to accomplish a dissemination but I can't do it without emotion. I can't do it without feeling a way sometimes. So some of the difficulties of experiences, feeling like I'm on the verge of tears, but not,\not letting that spill. Or sometimes having a spill and feeling. Feeling a ways about that. It's a very vulnerable state to be in. But our truth is so raw, and so emotionally grounded. And even, the teachers oftentimes will, will break down into tears. And that's hard for me. It is a huge energy expense for me, in lots of different ways, physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And yeah, that's the hardest thing. The other thing, that's really another challenge that I've had, are the people who come in really hard edged, and say really mean things to you. Intentionally or unintentionally. Just really thoughtless comments, or observations, or reflections that are definitely not connected to what was shared, but they're offloading. That's really hard sometimes. Again, I have a sense of empathy. But I also have a sense of offense. Like I'm a person you're talking. I'm not a book you're talking to. You're talking to a human being here. It hasn't happened very often because there's such great care in how our events are organized, and then,\supported in delivery. So I've never felt alone. Once something like that happens, there's always been some sort of an intervention, which has been really helpful so that I can put myself back together and continue on. 

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  27:57  

The other thing that is really hard is that we are exploring ever-evolving truths. And it's really difficult. It's just it's such a heavyweight to carry a way and then try and work through because there's no distance between the truth and my life. Even if it happened 100 years ago, there's a currency about it that is challenging. Like, did I use the right words? Did I cover enough? Did I express it the best way possible? Did I diminish the people because I told the truth? There's a great sense of responsibility for how things are shared. I'm a pretty direct person, there's not a lot of gray with me, and not everybody operates like that. And so, meaning the great diversityof how people want to learn,, there are greedy learners. So like, just give it to me just give it all to me now. And it's not like a McDonald's version where you can give instant gratification. You have to walk through things. Sometimes you have to take a journey. It's  not instant. So those have been hard for me sometimes. Because oftentimes, it's not how I planned it to go. I have no organic nature anyways. But sometimes, those deviations can be really harsh. And yeah, that would be the greatest kind of difficulties of navigating to date. In my work with Facing History, which is not Facing History oriented, it's participant oriented. You just never know who you're going to deal with.

Jessica Sass  30:03  

And I'm sorry if that brought up any, any memories or anything. If there's in those moments of feeling untethered, you talked about how you ground yourself. I don't know if there's other ways that you'd like to share if that would be helpful to revisit again.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  30:26  

Yeah. So I like the word tethering. But I love the word grounding. Because I never come in alone, right? I come in with all my ancestors, whether you can see them or not, they're there. And they're, the cheerleading squad, like, yes, tell them yes. And don't forget this and, and say it in this way. And I can hear them through what I actually say. It's like there's this transmission that happens. But having  the cultural supports in place and having Facing History make the preparations to accommodate that. So I don't know, in your region, but in our region, we smudge, right, so we burn the medicines and we clean the space, there's a physical cleaning, there's a spiritual cleaning, there's an emotional opening. There's pushback in the western cultural world. it's like, oh, no, we can't have that, it's gonna start the fire alarm. Oh, no, but this, people are allergic to the smell. I mean, we get all kinds of rejection about those ways. And like, if you want me to come in, you're asking me to leave my leg in my arm at the door then. Because that's what those support tools are like, for me. And they're the tethering, they're the grounding. They're what I need to feel safe and to feel okay. And to hold that space for others. So Facing History always makes accommodations for that. They go through the struggle I don't have to deal with. I don't have to hear about it. And then they provide the space for me whole and complete. And that's not always the case. And I work with a wide variety of people from government institutions all the way down to little grassroot groups. And, yeah, it's one of the things I'm most proud about in lots of ways. Because being able to come in holding completes in a contemporary sense with the tools of history. And yet seeing them applied in a contemporary sense, is a vastly important teaching tool for teachers who are in institutions that still push back and say no. So they realize, oh, this is helpful, oh, this helps me too. And then they're the warriors in the institutions when they invite me to come in. And so it helps to break the workload down in a way that is integral to how I want to operate.

Jessica Sass  32:54  

That makes sense. So when reflecting on your experience working with the staff at Facing History, and other partnerships, with Facing History and with other educators or other people, what about the work and the way of working sustains you, you personally, because I feel like we're talking a lot about what sustains others too and what sustains you? 

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  33:32  

So the question is what sustains me in my working relationship with Facing History? 

Jessica Sass  33:38  

Yes.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  33:40  

Lots of things. So what I just talked about, having the cultural support, navigation permission in place, but also the fact that it's a teamwork environment. So when we come in, I'm always invited to stay the day if I so choose, even if I only have a one hour time slot, which I I love and I think is deeply respectful to the role that I hold in the Indigenous community. And you knowwhat I'm bringing in my invitation because it's not just me, I'm bringing the whole community in different ways, right, seen and unseen. So that the teamwork environment is they make sure that I understand why I'm there. They refresh me. They may do things like take care of my body. I always have some sort of food to eat and drink without asking for it. And when you're in your, I don't know about other people, but when I'm in my role, sometimes I forget how thirsty I am until that bottle of water is put there or that glass of water because they know I prefer glass rather than a bottle like it's not detail oriented. I don't support the purchase of bottled water. And so they give me a glass of water. And  I love that. There's such a great care there that helps me to not get drained and get tired, but also, to be at my best, to embrace a sense of wellness in the work that I do. And they think about what I can eat. There's just, there's not a preconceived, well, this is easy, we're just gonna have sandwiches and cookies. They think about do you have allergies? And, is this okay? And is this the right food for you? And, they think about the time of day, and they think about the travel. Because sometimes I travel really long distances to come to their events, because I don't live in the city limits anymore. And they think, even so far as do want to come the night before, so they provide a hotel accommodation. These might seem like this is business, but no, this is more than business. This is great care, so that I can arrive, again whole and complete. Something in my belly, well rested, ready to deliver and then being able to leave in a safe manner. 

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  36:09  

I have worked really hard with some organizations where I'm exhausted. Just the sheer driving was maybe three, four hours of my life. And two hours to get there and two hours to get home. And on the drive home, I have to pull over, I'm exhausted, I didn't get anything to drink, I didn't get anything to eat, I couldn't leave because I was in service. And now I have to take this long drive home. Those, and I don't know how they budget for this. But those things are really important for the human being who's coming to contribute. And people just don't think about it, well, you should prepare for that. Well, you don't always have time. So how onerous is it to have a little something in place for you. They also sometimes as we age, some people get a little forgetful, or get a little off balance. And they are ready in a moment to swoop in and hold that space, the momentum of the space, and yet give that person a chance to step aside for a minute. So they can recoup and come back. I've experienced it, I've witnessed it with other traditional people coming in. And it's such a beautiful, important thing. You don't get the eye rolling like oh she forgot. You never get any of that. You always get okay, do you need a minute, we're gonna do this. And then they'll take the person out, and then they get to come back in. And, just pick up where they left off. I always feel like I'm picking up where I left off. I never feel like even if I don't work with? them in a month or two months or four months. I always feel like I'm picking up where I left off. It's like this seamless, woven fabric of connection that doesn't need it. I'm sorry, we haven't reached out in a while or nothing. It's just like, how are you? Good, let's go. And it makes you feel like a part of the team. I personally feel important in the whole event, even though the harder part of the work was done by them, and I just come in and bring in whatever Kim magic I have that day.

Jessica Sass  38:27  

No, I feel that those types of relationships are the most beautiful ones. I have that. So I'm half Canadian. So my mom's from Winnipeg. And a lot of my family now lives in Toronto, or outside of Toronto. And we see them maybe, well now since the pandemic, we haven't seen them for a few years, but we see them maybe once a year if we're lucky. Usually once every two or three years. And it's like we pick up right where we left off. And it's like magic even though we're not talking every day.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  39:02  

There is a certain magic and you hit the nail on the head use the right word. And I don't know if I've used that word yet, but I have a relationship with Facing History that is familial, that is professional, and that is seamlessly interwoven between those two.

Jessica Sass  39:35  

So we talked about how you've maintained and how you have relationships with the folks from Facing History today, but I'm wondering if you kept in touch with any of the participants that you worked with. Or how you let go knowing that your time with them is temporary and accept that it may not be long term enough, and that's also okay.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  40:04  

So my relationship with Facing History is forever. It will never be temporary. Whether I'm in an actual engaged manner, or just in the background being a cheerleader, it's a forever relationship. And I'm richer for it. In terms of other participants 100% I've kept in touch with many participants, because they have secured me as a facilitator, they have access to me for cultural consultation, I've coordinated events. And so it's been really rewarding for me on a personal level, reaching out, perhaps, with teachers who sat with me and already have an idea on how I work and how they could best work with me. But also, I might not have ever met them otherwise. I don't advertise. All I do is by word of mouth. And I have to vet you like, what are you about? What are you doing? Do I actually want to engage with you? Because as I mentioned, time is the most precious gift we can give to another. And I've, I've been on the earth quite a while already. I don't know how much time I have left. But I'm mindful of how I'm using that. So yeah, it's been a very rich pool of opportunity for me that I may not have gotten to so directly.

Jessica Sass  41:38  

Yeah. So I'm going to shift the questions a bit from Facing History to kind of more broader concepts, you're welcome to use Facing History or anything. But what does justice mean to you in the context of education?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  42:02  

I feel like education today is not just. Because we don't see true equality and diversity and truth being disseminated. I feel like education today is an indoctrination, which is not just. Being indoctrinated is not education. Having a voice as a young person, and having some validation for that doesn't exist. So there's no justice there. Youth are, they're the reason why we do what we do. They're the ones who are going to learn from and then expand as a result of and if we limit their expansion by limiting their truth, true justful education, then we have not served well. And we're working in an educational system structure that's old, it's out of date, it's wrong on so many levels. An affirmation of that is the increasing dropout rates. Students are not interested in the educational experience. Post secondary, you get to see true expansion because they actually have a voice and they have ideas sharing. And they have an expansion; body, mind, spirit, that is very constrained in elementary school, in high school. This is what you have to learn. These are the credits you have to earn. Done. Boom. And a lot of that is irrelevant to the brilliance of the kind of youth that are walking the earth today. They want more. They want something different. And they understand justice from a completely different perspective than we old relics do. I tried to stay as in the loop as possible, but I learn something from youth every time I engage with them. I get to see through a different lens, it makes me richer for the experience. And I feel like that's an under tapped aspect of the educational environment as a whole. So it shows that it's unjust, and not in the legal forms. It's in more of the human expansion forms of what justice is.And inclusivity. And diversity. And having voice. And eradicating disability. That would be justice for me. And I don't see that right now, in the educational realms. I see a very archaic, ancient way of forcing recitation, but not true learning.

Jessica Sass  44:56  

And how do you, I think that you spoke about this after the beginning, but you're speaking from the heart. And something that I think about that I constantly think about is how to connect the head and the heart in education and in everything that I do. And in the way of how schooling like mainstream schooling operates right now is very heady and very much focused on production and output. And how do you think we can forge or create some sort of expansion where the two work together and can coexist together?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  45:38  

They can't work together, cut off the head. Work work with the heart. The only true sustainable learning that a student will remember leaving their educational experience beyond the very basics of math and learning letters and learning how to read. And that kind of stuff is how they felt about something. And the more strongly they feel about something, the longer they will remember it. So the headspace is a space of judgment and ego, and the heart space is a place of truth, and empathy and compassion and connection. So, if all teaching was experienced in that way, we would have nothing but brilliance coming out of these 12 years of education. And then can you imagine what would happen to the post-secondary. It would have to undergo a massive revision as well because these would be such expanded individuals that true expertise would start to be the norm. Whereas now it's a specialized realm, right? And, the specialized realm is just based on memorization and regurgitation of somebody else's specialist ideologies, right, and you have to reference them and quote them.  And they could be wrong, but they're published, and so you can reference them as some sort of authenticity. It's crap. It's crap. I don't think there's a way to connect the head and the heart has led us right off track and the heart puts us right back on track.

Jessica Sass  47:19  

Yeah, and then you're stagnant. You're off and on. 

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  47:34  

People often talk about bridging, like, how can we bridge Indigenous education with Jewish experiences? How can we bridge the head and the heart? They're already connected? We've got that beautiful ladder called the spine.

Jessica Sass  47:49  

 Right.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  47:50  

 But how often has this part taken us apart? Whereas this part is never disconnected. It's connected to everything that sustains life, physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. Where do you feel fear, you feel below the head. It's in your throat, you get this choking feeling. That's right, you feel in your belly, you get these butterflies when you're excited. I mean, everything is experienced below the neck, and yet we use the neck, you know, above the neck for everything. And it's just a regurgitator. But this is how you live life. So is there a connection? Well, maybe at a scientific level, yeah. But we need to go from here, down to here. The world is a mess, the leadership is a joke. Education can't be sustained at this level. And we've seen it magnified through COVID impacts, right? So through COVID itself, we've gone virtual and how many students are even online, they turn it on, they're playing games, they're talking, they're sleeping, they're eating, they're not engaged, because there's nothing engaging about it. But then you'll have a guest speaker, like myself come in, it's like, what we've never heard before, what? And oh, and the reflections I get are like, that was so truthful. Oh, my God made me feel so, and as soon as they say it made me feel that I've done it. I know that I've done a good job. I know it took them from here, down to here. And if you talk to any of our Elders, if you talk to any of our traditional people. They always tell you the longest journey in life that you will ever take from your head to your heart. Let's fast track it through education.

Jessica Sass  49:39  

Yeah, I think that's why someone that I respect deeply like in my literature and where everything of my kind, not all but a lot of my views of education stem from is bell hooks and how she talks about in "Teaching to Transgress" in order to create an environment that supports students. Where students feel heard and listened to and held and seen as full people. Healing has to start first with you. And with self. And confronting trauma and healing and knowing that it's an ongoing process and you being teachers. Which is why I think that speaks to kind of what you're saying in terms of the importance of teaching teachers and then our educators educating the future.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  50:38  

Yeah, a true teacher, a successful teacher teaches from the heart. Other teachers will come to the teacher, what's your secret, because that students awful in my class? Well, that student you might not know comes from a difficult house, and they don't get to eat in the morning. So they're awful in the morning, they're hungry. So I bring a snack for them, or I provide a safe space for them to be in. Or I accept that this is how they learn, because school only teaches in one one way. And there are many different ways of learning. I'm a visual learner. So when you say your name, to me, the only way I can remember it is that have to write it down. And then I see it, even if I, even if I could say, yeah, Jessica, but then I have to write it down to remember it. And I wasn't I wasn't supported as a visual learner in my educational experience. And neither were my children who learned the same way. But my dad understood that I was a visual learner. So all homework was done visually for me, so they could get it. And, now I'm really, really good with words, apparently. But, it took a while to get to that. And the reason I'm good with words is because it's visual, you can write it out. We don't even write anymore in school, right? Everything's computer handwriting for students today is atrocious. Like, what did you I can't even read what you wrote. And, and cursive writing has been eliminated? What? Why? We need to know how to write a script, we need to know how to print, we have to sign documents, we have to sign our name on things. If they don't teach him how to write with a pen and a pencil. Have you ever seen some kids the way they try and hold the pencil? Like who writes like this? Right? It's it's supposed to go through your fingers

Jessica Sass  52:34  

I do hold my pencil a little wonky, though, cuz I'm left handed.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  52:38  

But that's different, right? Because you're learning from a right handed person. So how on earth are you supposed to learn that? But I've seen people wrap their arms around like this and try and write it's like what the heck are you doing? I feel like the current educational system, from junior kindergarten to grade 12 is an abysmal failure. And I do the work that I do to try and I don't know, add something meaningful, to the experience of all students because I speak to all ages. I speak to elementary, secondary, post secondary, cultural based environments in schools. And I'm no different in any of them, I don't need to be, I need to be who I am. And offer that, whereas if you are trained as a teacher, there's a way that you teach and you can't deviate from that. You will get reprimanded, you could lose your job. You must take the boxes. As a cultural consultant,  as an Indigenous traditional grandmother, I break all the rules, I come in and say whatever I want. I do whatever I want. And the students respond to the fact that I'm not a robot. I am not checking boxes. I'm present. I'm offering an emotional engagement that hopefully is meaning and enriching and empowering for you.

Jessica Sass  54:27  

In light of the summer, and all of the unmarked graves of children that were found isn't surprising. You've all been saying that they've been there for decades. And finally, this is coming into mainstream Canadian and US discourse about the atrocities of boarding schools. I'm wondering, much like in the US with all of the unarmed innocent black men that have been murdered. There's some sort of momentum that happens after and, an awakening in white America. But then we go on, and it's reactionary, confronted on a reactionary basis, unfortunately.  I hope that that's not the case. And I know that that's not the case. And as I spoke with Leora, or if that's not the case in sustaining momentum here, but I'm wondering, when, when you get confronted, when you're asked about that, and asked about how finally it is in mainstream discourse. How do you hope that non Indigenous people will continue to sustain and support and finally welcome truth and uphold truth?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  56:02  

So, that's a complex question that will really take a lifetime to flesh out. But things that touched me at the top of my head about sustaining, sustaining momentum, interest, engagement. Truth exposure has been a challenge. I mean, there was 150 years of invisibility silencing. And, I don't know some sort of historic amnesia conspiracy taking place that was very successful. With the first 215 children that were discovered or unearthed at Kamloops Residential School. Some Canadians were genuinely shocked. They drink the Kool Aid and believe that this is the safe, honest place that only has the best intentions. And then there was outrage, which you can only sustain for so long. And for me, I believe that divisivness and war and anger don't change anything. It just inflames more of that kind of negative discourse and negative response and it peters out over time. Or it heads in very and fuels very negative outcomes that do not benefit the greater good. I feel education and seeing each other as human beings is very unifying, and very important. And blame and shame do not serve us or do not serve the greater good. Accepting responsibility for actions is very important. So we have this word called reconciliation that's gotten all kinds of fuel under it. And when that word first started being used, I had no relationship to it, I didn't get it like reconciliation. It's just so Western, it just doesn't seem to embrace cultural grounding and founding. It just doesn't seem to honor what we're experiencing at this time. And it bothered me, it bothered me a lot. And it still bothers me. But I use it because other people seem to have some sort of understanding or relationship to this word. I think that when we talk about sustainability right now, actually since about 2000. Really since Mistila Forms stepped forward and said I was abused, we started seeing this big change. In the 90’s, there was this magnificent report done called the Royal Commission on Aboriginal People. Some people just call it the RCAP report, and it's been read on Indigenous radio every Sunday for eons because it's a 4000 page document that covers all of this horrific stuff and experiences and desired changes and how  to really make systemic changes that are meaningful, so this doesn't repeat itself. And it was shelved. Very few people know about this. And there was very little interest garnered by educational systems to take it up and explore it and use it as a foundational piece to start restructuring and  inserting another way of knowing this is our home we didn't come from any place else.  First Nations - Métis and Inuit, what the Constitution recognizes us as, even though we're much more diverse than that. We're not going anywhere. There is still in school the perception that we're disappearing race, and the government will throw out stats every once in a while. I think the latest is 2050, there'll be no more status Indians in this country like somehow we're gonna we're gonna be eradicated or assimilated into the hole. And we're the only race of people that are measured by blood quantum. If you are a settler, and you come here from whatever country you identify, you don't have to prove it. They just accept it, and all your children get to claim that identity, and you're done with it. Whereas us, we have to prove it on paper through some sort of Western system, paper trail.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  1:00:54  

And the government even goes so far as to tell us who our children are. So you can see right there, like how broken this system is. And so when you talk about sustainability, does that mean it will end at 2050, when the government no longer recognizes us as existing and sovereign people in this country with specialized rights.  So you have to think in a long term fashion, when you're looking at sustainability and action active plans, that will actually push back on that kind of forced lie that the government supports financially in an educational sense, in their annual planning, in their law attacks against us. I mean, we've been in court for 200 years fighting over some real basic things. Today, we're fighting for compensation for abused children and water and it's still a fight. Canadians take for granted, being able to turn on the tap and drink water. And 60% of our communities don't have that ability, we're literally dying of thirst. In a country that has one of the largest access to fresh water on Earth. How is this possible? You know, bottled water in some communities cost more than a steak. So you're talking about long term, you're talking about connections to reality now, and what that's gonna look like in five years from now, 10 years from now.  Why I do this work is because I saw this kind of deterioration. And nobody who's trained as a teacher to be able to step in and say no. And Canadians at large, not standing up beside us when we're saying, when we're creating a physical body of people saying Don't cross this line and cut down these grandmother trees. They're 800 years old. Your little tree that you are going to plant will have the same genetics. And they water bomb us. They pepper spray us. And they shoot at us with rubber bullets. And they let the dogs go and rip us apart. Under the government's orders, like the insanity that we're trying to work through to navigate sustainability, like it's so extreme. So where do you find not even middle ground, the ground? Where do you get the rootedness from? Where do you get the unity that needs to occur? I have seen a huge divide manifest in my Elder years here. Really supported by COVID and its impacts. I've seen hatred spew in public formats. I've seen violence, literally huge outpouring of condoned, and unaddressed violence committed against just a select group of people. And no diminishment of that. The United States accepts the deaths of people of color. It's okay, you can kill them. You know, maybe that officer will get put on unpaid leave or paid leave for a while. But there's like if I did that, I'd be in jail for the rest of my life. Just look at Leonard Peltier. So there's no justice. There's no equality. And yet I want to maintain hope. I want to believe in the humaneness of my fellow human beings, who live in a home that has always been ours. To Stand up and not fight, but find beautiful loving ways to demand change. We've only use some of the really negative ways to date. And that we've gotten lots of media attention and the media thrives on negativity, I don't want to support that. And I don't want to see that as the only avenue that we take. Our prophecies talk about the fork in the road, or in this eighth fire prophecy, where we've been traveling down this road, and then it splits into two, and we can take the easy way, or we can take the hard way. Why take the hard way, when you have a choice. The easier way is more economical, the easier way serves the greater good, the easier way provides expansion for endless possibility.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  1:05:57  

The majority of people in our great Island, North America are people with melanin. And they have not used their collective power to say no more. And that should happen but not in negative ways in harmful ways in self serving ways, but in the greater good promise of potential and possibility. That is, everybody wins. Everybody wins in that. There's not this divisiveness. It's okay, we're taking the easy road. And we all accept and agree that this is the way that we should go. The collective consciousness is not collective at this point. There are pockets of brilliance. Facing History is an example of brilliance. It's a shining light of potential impossibility. And we need to replicate that. We need to vaccinate everybody with that as a methodology, a chosen methodology of true change.

Jessica Sass  1:07:08  

Yeah. That's why I'm interested in doing this project is to see how it can be/if it has the potential of replicating.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  1:07:16  

War will never be the solution. Take all the money you put into war and creating war in other parts of the world and put into the country, into just beautiful change. Support it, fund it, breathe life into it, and demand it as a first structural change. Could you imagine what it would be like? We would eliminate the one percenters who are just mega rich and don't care. Ah, you guys go scrabble around in the scraps and try and make do. I'm fine with my 12 islands, my 45 buildings and my multi billions of dollars. Your issue is yours. Hahahaha. We would change that, dramatically.

Jessica Sass  1:08:03  

 I have two more questions for you.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  1:08:05  

Okay.

Jessica Sass  1:08:08  

And these are both off script. So one of my questions comes from my conversation with Andrew. He said that something that he really appreciates about Facing History is that they don't in writing curriculum, like in Stolen Lives, or lesson plans and curriculum that's being written around Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. In workshops, the focus isn't only about the past and honoring legacy, but it's also envisioning a future where Indigenous people can thrive and not like you said 2050 eradicated. So I'm wondering, without limits, without limiting the current state, and I know that this question might be kind of silly considering everything and being so cognizant of the world, what are your dreams for your grandchildren?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  1:09:11  

Have a voice. To be visible in a safe space and place always, in all ways. To have true freedom of speech, and to have true leadership. I would love to see that. I'd love to witness that. I'd love to still be walking the earth when that comes into play. Through those avenues, we will restore harmony and balance with all things that comprise the life of the earth herself. She's our mother. She sustains us. We have poor leadership. We have all the opposites of what I just mentioned. And we've seen the outcomes of that. So let's totally turn that on its head in my idealistic way, and try the other side of the spectrum. And see how that works for us, all of us, us in capitals. Yeah?

Jessica Sass  1:10:16  

Yeah. And then my last question for you before I say, is there anything that you'd like to add is, so with this project, it will not be owned by me these questions, and every part of the process has been driven in conversation with Andrew McConnell. So when I asked this question, my initial question was, how can I uphold your truths? But I think the better question is more so how can we, whoever the audience's and also mean the process. Whoever has the opportunity to listen to this, uphold your truth. And what would you like to see and how can I support you? Whether that be like I'm going to give you the transcript to the video. But if there's anything that I can do on my end to uphold and uplift?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  1:11:23  

What could you do on your end, to uphold and lift? Think big, think bigger than you've ever thought. And believe it to be possible. Think with limitations today. And so we experienced this limitation. We are greater together, and then as singular units, and we have more power, collectively, then we currently give currency to. So we can bring that all together. And just think expansively, I believe to be true, I believe it will manifest. I believe it will be our experience. And so just thinking about the limitations of curriculum development. Now, that's a stepping stone to change. But it's not the only way. There's systemic changes that need to happen. There's collective conscious changes that need to happen. There's access points that need to be multi-pronged and not just singular. And then you choose one way and then go that way because we have to focus in some way, we are more capable of multi-focus ability. And, we can do many things at once. So we can use many ways at once. Now, we're using one way, especially the educational diagrama, it's ridiculous. It's insanity. And it's not supporting success. Success in kind of the bigger realm of things. So for me, I want you to think big. I want us to think big. I want the collective to be big. And not just isolated little silo pockets of engagement. The compartmentalizing of thought and action and process is a diminishment of the greatness of who we are as human beings. So if we can go from linear thinking, to perhaps circular thinking and then get to spherical thinking. It's thinking big, that's embracing a whole different way of being, thinking and enriching. An educational experience, but a life experience that is sustainable, and long-living. 

Jessica Sass  1:13:51  

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. For your really valued time. I really, really appreciate it. And I feel very lucky to share the space and I feel like I'm almost sitting next to you in a room even though we're 1000’s of miles away.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  1:14:09  

Yeah!

Jessica Sass  1:14:11  

Is there anything else that you'd like to add that you thought about during our time together before I stopped recording?

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  1:14:21  

So I'm always thinking, Jessica. I'm always thinking, I'm in service. I was born to be in service in this life walk to help to be a helper. And what I most appreciate about today is the human centered focus in which you engaged and listened and then reflected. Tell me that you were hearing me, you were feeling me, and you were experiencing this with me. And it doesn't feel like resource extraction in that way. There's a reciprocity there that is in alignment with true learning. And true learning starts with respect and relationship. And then and then finding ways to birth that into some form of meaningful reciprocity. And I have felt that in this experience. I mean, I can only be me at the end of the day, and that's all I ever want to be.  I want to speak my truth uncensored. And, hopefully contribute to the pool of change because right now I feel like it's pools and I want it to be oceans. I want it to be the seas. I want it to be big, big, big. And how do we get there? I had the privilege of sitting with somebody who knows she's a changemaker. And you're using the system to insert change, and somebody is going to quote you at some point in their work, once you complete your thesis that is going to support that rippling out of change that we can get to the ocean. And that is I'm thinking seven generations ahead or perhaps 14 or 21, or just, however far. And you are a grain of sand on the beach of change, as am I. How exciting and amazing is that? I thank you for that. Thank you, thank you for sharing who you are, what drives you. And the outcome of this beautiful project, which will be important. It will be important, we don't know who and when and why and where. But we know it will be and I think you feel like I've spent some of my sacred time in a very meaningful engagement. That is what I want to say.

Jessica Sass  1:16:54  

To convey that our grains of sand met each other whatever wind and current brought us together and brought me to Facing History Canada.

Grandmother Kim Wheatley  1:17:06  

It's beautiful. It is beautiful.