Transcript

Jessica Sass  0:03  

Alright. Okay, hi! Can you please tell me your name? And what are your preferred pronouns?

Leora Schaefer  0:17  

Leora Schaefer and she/her.

Jessica Sass  0:21  

And how are you doing today? How's your week been?

Leora Schaefer  0:24  

Good. Thank you. Thank you for moving the meeting. This is much better.

Jessica Sass  0:29  

Of course. Okay, so I guess I'm gonna jump into my questions. So, can you tell me what brought you to Facing History? Like, how are you initially introduced to the organization?

Leora Schaefer  0:43  

It's a long story, but I will try to make it short. The short story is that I was living in Boston at graduate school, I was doing a graduate program in Jewish communal service, and are now Jewish professional leadership and Jewish Studies at Brandeis. And I had thought that my path was going to… I worked in Jewish day schools for many years are excellent. And I'd worked in Jewish day schools for a couple of years before applying for graduate school. And I thought that my path was into sort of Jewish Day School administration, principal leadership, and Brandeis, the Hornstein program had an internship year, and I have actually sort of quietly, initiated an internship at the Jewish Women's Archive, which is where I wanted to intern. And when I had my meeting with my supervisor, she said, "No, that's not how you do it, you don't coordinate your own internship, you work with me, and we established learning goals, and we find a good fit for you." And she said, "I want you to go to Facing History." And I had never heard of Facing History before, but was told that it was an organization that examined the history of the Holocaust. And I was like, I'm just not interested in that. I went, you know, I had done many things already in high school connected to the Holocaust. I felt like my own Holocaust education in high school had been sort of manipulated around my Jewish identity. I was just like, I'm not, I'm just not interested. And I was required to go to this interview. I was told that if I, you know, I had to go. And I did go to the interview, and was completely, just, saw the approach. And the approach to teaching history is so different than anything I had personally experienced. And I was interning at the Jewish Education Program. And so I was specifically thinking about what Jewish students needed as they learned about the Holocaust from an identity perspective, which was so different than what I had received myself. And I just really fell in love with the organization and its mission and mandate and started working more with teachers sort of across North America. And when I had an opportunity, then as Canadian to move home to Canada, I, they made it possible to telecommute, and I was here doing work, teaching online courses that's just living here, and in Toronto, and was actually told that  under no circumstances will be opening up an office. And when I came here, what I learned was that there had been, since the early 80s, when Facing History was very, very new, there had been a group of incredible educators who had connected to Boston through the sort of early equity work that had been going on here in Toronto. And those all women became real leaders in education here in the province, and in equity education. And so when I landed, there were all of these opportunities that were already here for me. And that sort of became, you know, I basically had every step along the way, where there was an opportunity for Facing History and I to part ways. First, after my internship year when I was ready for a position and a position became available, you see a streak? Basically did not want to, to leave, and have no desire to ever leave. So it just sort of became like this and then when I moved home to Canada, this became possible and then eventually, we were able to open up an office, which is sort of the beginning of the story, but yeah, that's my I didn't tell it in any sort of way. But that's my origin story with Facing History.

Jessica Sass  4:47  

Can you please explain your current role?

Leora Schaefer  4:50  

So I am the Executive Director for Facing History and Ourselves here in Canada and that position oversees the strategic growth, development, partnership here in Canada. It's evolving, and it's a role that has evolved. I didn't start here in that position. I was working more solidly in programs at the beginning. And I worked very closely with Jasmine Wong and the rest of the programs team here on growing the program, components and initiatives on the ground in Canada.

Jessica Sass  5:31  

And just to clarify, did you have a history of teaching at all in the undergrad and professional world?

Leora Schaefer  5:39  

Yeah, so I taught actually, I taught for two years before in a school here in Toronto, I taught for two years before going to graduate school. 

Jessica Sass  5:50  

Okay.

Leora Schaefer  5:50  

And then throughout graduate school, I had various teaching positions, sort of a more informal educational setting.

Jessica Sass  5:57  

Gotcha. So,  you said a bit earlier, a few minutes ago about how Facing History's approach was a lot different than what you were used to as a student, and how they, you know, root their work around the Holocaust around identity and self. So I'm wondering, how have you seen yourself? Let me–sorry, let me rephrase, because I don't have this written down. But I'm curious how your pedagogical approach to say Jewish education or your own, leadership approach changed or evolved over the years within Facing History and within your various roles?

Leora Schaefer  6:36  

Oh, my goodness. I mean, I would say that I am well–I'll say that when Margo Stern Strong, who is the founding educator and executive director of facing history, what are two educators that started the organization? When she retired, I said to her, I actually thanked her for raising me. Because I really do feel that my who I am professionally, but even personally, has been impacted by Facing History. 

Jessica Sass  7:27  

So you were talking about

Leora Schaefer  7:32  

It has completely impacted the way I think about my role within the larger society. So, I was always somebody who volunteered. I mean, this was part of who I was really committed to social justice, but the Facing History perspective of our responsibility to think carefully about our choices. I mean, it really has impacted the way I see myself as a leader, the way I work with teams, the way I parent, the way I engage with people who have different opinions and perspectives than I do. It really has, I mean I joke, but it’s actually not a joke at all, Facing History is not a job. I am not. Someone once said to me, because I work long hours, I make sacrifices, sometimes I choose to be doing something for work instead of doing something else, maybe doing something with my family. And someone says as a working mom, you know, no one's gonna remember what you did professionally, it's your children. I mean, it was a pretty snarky thing for someone to say to a working mom anyway, so we'll leave that aside. But I remember thinking, actually no,my work matters. The impact that I'm having, and that we're having as an organization, and as a team on youth in Canada, and the teachers who are doing so much to support them,  yeah, actually. I hope that the work I'm doing today will be remembered, and it will. And yes, of course, what I do with my kids and how I raised them, but it's also become more to again, like how I parent, how I see the world, how I move through and then you know, for the purpose of our conversation. What I've learned in the last, you know, since we started working, and delving into Canadian history, and partnering and building relationships with Indigenous people who are now friends and colleagues, that has once again built on who I am impacted how I see myself, thinking about my role as a settler here in Canada. What are my responsibilities? How do I think about–how do I take teachings that Indigenous Eders have shared with me? And those are not just professional learning? Those are personal learning.  How am I committed to issues differently because of the relationships that I have built because of people who I now know. So Yeah, I would say that Facing History has completely impacted who I am, professionally, personally, as a leader in all areas of my life. I'm lucky—not many people get to say that.

Jessica Sass  10:45  

So once you move back to Toronto, how did you initially facilitate connections with other educators in your immediate community or other organizations?

Leora Schaefer  10:56  

Facing History raising me. Well, so that is the story of these exceptional women who had been doing work here for so many years. They, in particular, Myra Novogrodsky and Margaret Wells, and then other people who sort of they brought on board, but they had been very closely connected–and Sharon Weintrob as well–to work to Facing History staff and would bring people from Boston here. The Equity Center at the old Toronto School Board had a crazy budge  I can't even imagine the number of dollars that would have been, it would never, I wish it would happen today. But Myra oversaw a budget for equity work. And with teachers were sent to Boston. Boston staff would come here for professional development. And so when I landed here in Toronto, I actually met Myra and Margaret in an elevator at the Facing History office literally on my way out to my U-Haul to drive back to Toronto. There was an international educator conference. And in the elevator, somebody had in passing said, Oh, Leora, you should meet Myra and Margaret. We joke that it's a When Harry Met Sally moment, where there are two people telling the story. And so I left the office with my box, got into my U-Haul, sat in the with my partner who was driving and said, Well, that was a game changer. And Myra and Margaret have always dreamed of opening up an actual office in Canada. And they turned to each other. They were like, well, that's a game changer that I was moving to Toronto. And so they would make introductions. There was a long history of relationships that I landed into, and trust in this organization. And that was just so lucky. And so, at one point, you know, there was like 10% of my job is allowed to be allocated to work in Toronto, and then 25%. The true game changer here was that in the Toronto District School Board, a committee was established to revisit work that had been done in the 90s on genocide education, at the time, had been about the Holocaust. But now they wanted to sort of think about what more broadly this could be. A course called Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity was established that that was built on the Facing Historypedagogical approach, and our scope and sequence. Our resources were brought in to teach that course. We worked with the teacher writers to create the profile for that course. Then, as that course then spread across the province, we went with it,and so that was actually what allowed us to, you know, think about establishing an actual office here in Canada, that well it first in Ontario, really Southern Ontario and then expand.

Jessica Sass  14:15  

So, how are you able identify a need to incorporate, and establish the Stolen Lives curriculum, and also know that  a curriculum around Canada, directly naming what happened, while also knowing that the Holocaust and human behavior curriculum that is a little bit more distant can coexist with one another? How are you able to bring that more to the focal point and  at what point in your journey did that become more of a focus?

Leora Schaefer  14:56  

This is a great story. I think all of these are sort of origin stories, and how do we look back and think about how this all came into place? And, you know, I'd like to say that it was all a very strategic move. But what I think you'll hear is that certainly we jumped at opportunities, but made a lot of decisions. Well, I'll tell you the story. So, I was doing a workshop, early days at OISE, with the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education. I was doing a workshop for teachers. We had a very, very small teacher community in Ontario, like sort of Southern Ontario, mostly in Toronto. And I was doing a workshop on a new resource that Facing History in the US had written and, I mean, I think it's an amazing history, but it is not a very well known history, about the Arpilleristas, as they say in Chile. In the Pinochet coup, there was a group of women. [Chile] was sealed, there was no information about what was happening, [people] getting out of the country, and a group of women were in basements of churches, quilting tapestries. And the tapestries were quilted out of the clothing of the disappeared men in their lives. And they were telling the stories of what was happening. And because it was just a group of women groping in the basement of churches, they were being ignored. They were able to smuggle these tapestries out of the country through Amnesty International, and so, the stories were getting out in part. Incredible story of upstanders. And a teacher who we had been working with asked if she could invite a friend of hers who was a quilter, not an educator, but a friend of hers. It was a quilter to come, and again,  we're so small, like maybe we had 15 people in this workshop,this was not a concern about being oversubscribed. And so, Alice Williams, who I want to be identified by name—it's very important. Alice Williams came in from Curve Lake reserve. And I had done my very typical Facing History overview: this is our work, this is our scope and sequence, these are the histories that we have, we began with the Holocaust, we've now developed all these other areas of content… And I pause for questions, where there's usually no questions. And Alice stood up and pointed at me and said, and she was with every right so angry, her voice was—you could hear it. She said maybe she didn't stand up. She pointed at me. She's like, how dare you? How dare you call yourself Facing History and Ourselves and have no content looking at the history of our own? I mean, at the time, she said Aboriginal and indigenous people in Canada, nothing reflective on our own, as you said dark past, but certainly our own complicated, difficult histories. How can you stand there and call yourself Facing History and Ourselves? And I 100% knew that she was right. I knew going into that. I already knew for a year that we would need eventually to have content that looked at our own history here in Canada. But there's always excuses that can be made. I don't have the capacity. I mean, I was literally myself, then we hired a part-time office manager. I had no funding— there were always reasons. And there were lots of reasons. In addition to not having partners, I grew up in Winnipeg completely with my own miseducation. I mean, how would I teach something that I didn't learn myself, but that was a kick that was the impetus. Alice was the one, you know, that just really made it a priority. And we were able to seek out funding and start thinking about what that history and what that content would be. We were just at the time as a country beginning. The first the TRC initiative, sort of had some stops and starts along the way, but the sort of first iteration was just starting. [It] was sort of about the first time that we were really starting to talk about residential schools. And that was, that was the beginning of the journey. And we can talk about this—but how we started and where we are now are two very different places.

Leora Schaefer  19:52  

But that was sort of the start and I think it was your other part of the question. It was always clear to me that we could hold multiple histories we- I didn't already know, because we had started with a history of the Holocaust,and had,as an organization, develop additional resources that were based on the learning that we had, you know, as an organization that started in 1976, we learned so much about what it meant to teach history to adolescent learners. How to tap into questions of identity. How to ultimately motivate young people to take responsibility for their actions to create and see themselves as change agents. So I felt like we could, and I should say, educators were already, taking that content and using it in all sorts of different ways in their classrooms. So, I was never concerned that we couldn't create content that looks in the same way at Canadian history or in a Canadian case study. What I knew was that we didn't know enough to actually do anything other than start. And I think the other thing I would say is that we're also very good as an organization through our approach to understanding the universals and the particulars. So I knew thatwe could take the particulars that there were universal approaches, that were universal lessons, that were universal ways of thinking about genocide, although at the time, we were not thinking about the residential schools by using the term genocide. But I did know that we could, we could look at something and understand the particulars of that history, and also see how connections and bridges could be made. I trusted us as an organization to be able to do that without creating a sort of a mess of like comparison of genocide, a comparison that doesn't actually allow for deep learning. So I knew enough to trust us, that that would not be a path that we would go down.

Jessica Sass  22:15  

That makes sense. So I asked a similar question to Jasmine and Andrew. But based off with what you're saying with your interaction with Alice, we're so interested in Facing History Canada because there's a way in which  you deviate from the rest of the organizations being both sovereignty and equity seeking, and how you partner with other educators, rather than just working with, you know, scholars that don't have first hand experience. So from what I'm hearing, it almost seems like that was a necessity, in order for Facing History Canada to progress, naturally, you need to have some sort of community-based partnership. 

Leora Schaefer  23:10  

I would love for that to be the story, but I would actually say that the story is much more of stumbling, falling forward, learning from mistakes. I said this already, but where we are now. And where we were, when we began, even then, we did things better. We had a better approach. I don't know exactly what that means. But we weren't a textbook, we knew enough to not  replicate the very same problems of sort of a textbook approach where, you know, no indigenous people were at all involved. And, you know, telling, you know, the voice-over approach of this is what we learn about, you know, we were never going to do that. But I would say that where we started as an organization was not actually in a more… we weren't working from a perspective of sovereignty.

Jessica Sass  24:23  

So how did you transition to that?

Leora Schaefer  24:27  

Right, so let me tell you Stolen Lives is a really powerful resource. I wouldn't, we would not be writing it the way we wrote it. So we had a lead editor, nonindigenous, based in Boston, who worked closely with myself and several advisors, including Theodore Fontaine, who he and his wife Morgan came on at the towards the end of the project and really supported an editing process, Theodore generously shared his pieces of his own book, Broken Circle, that we were able to reproduce in the book. And he wrote the preface. And he, and Morgan, you know, hours and hours of going through and editing.  The way I thought about Facing History's role and content creation at the time was like a weaver.  The voices were Indigenous voices, but the role that Facing History played was sort of weaving these voices together into a, you know, the Facing History, scope and sequence and how we begin with identity and the different readings and building this pedagogical, this route, this classroom resource. And when you look at the resource itself, you flip through, you know, most of it are first person voices of Indigenous people that are highlighted and, and permission, thought and copyright from it is all fine in that regard. But it is not a co-created, co-developed, co-initiated, working in the ways that we work today in true partnership, as and also recognizing, we are constantly asking ourselves the question today, like what is Facing History's role in curriculum development in this relationship, like what do we bring? And where does our voice begin? And where does our voice, where is it? Is it Aasolutely not a voice and we step back, or we help amplify in partnership by invitation, right? Like, we might think of Alice as like an invitation to be involved, but it wasn't really I mean, it was really like being called out or called in. She wasn't saying, Facing History, you should be developing this content. Like, that's different from how we would work today and how our relationships have evolved. And so I think that you know, who has I'm terrible at quotes, but is it not Maya Angelou who said, There's a quote something like,  once you know, better, do better, like, that's I may have misattributed that quote. But you know, that's, that's, that is the place where we're at. We do our very best to not replicate mistakes that we made. And we have an and we have truly learned because of trust. Because of the trust that has been given to us, it's not totally the right word, but the trust that has been placed upon us like that. So people like Andrew and Kim. And Lori, and Elder Shirley. And, Theodore Fontaine. Chief Theodore Fountaine. All of these individuals rested. And the relationships that we have with them have completely informed the way we work. So their real authentic relationship where there's, there's a lot, there's and it goes beyond just a professional relationship and trust, we know about people's lives, they know about our lives. We have relationships where someone can say to us, that's not right.

Leora Schaefer  29:21  

And more importantly, we have relationships where we can say things like, Is this is this right? Are we doing this in the right way? Is this a place? Are you sure you want us involved in this project? Is this the right place for Facing History? That trusted relationship and we're always thinking now about our work within the construct of sovereignty. And also within the within, really what it means to be in a reciprocal relationship. So I'm sure you've heard Jasmine talk a lot about this, but  what I think about in the way that we once worked. And in those seeking permissions, like copyright permissions, that's extractive practice. That is not to say that Stolen Lives, isn't a resource that your teachers and educators across the country are using and using well, and that the support that we've given them has changed practice and mindset and has had an impact. But it was, it is not the way that we work now that taking Indigenous voice, and reproducing it in a place, even if it's helpful, even if it has good, that's just not how it's just not how we work now. We really have that top of mind all the time, we are constantly asking ourselves and asking of each other that check of like, or is this Is this the place? Is this how we should be working? How are we, if it is how, how are we producing something? Who owns this resource? Whose is this a place where a logo goes on? Or doesn't it have a logo? Does it live on our website? Does it live with someone else? Is it these are the kinds of questions that we're always thinking about? And who do we bring in? And how, at what point?

Jessica Sass  31:28  

So when? When did you like to transition to that kind of switch? I'm sure that, you know, it didn't happen overnight? It probably happened as your relationships were forged or solidified.

Leora Schaefer  31:41  

It's so funny, because I, we've just had this conversation. And I think Jasmine and I each sort of pinpointed on a different moment. But I completely credit Jasmine in a moment where, well, okay, I would say that relationships influenced us. So the more we built relationships with partners, the more we thought about our own role, it's in any kind of relationship, right? Like when you're in a partner relationship, you think about  what do you bring to this relationship? What do you and so that naturally happened and the trust that we were given, built over time. And that didn't happen overnight. I would say that, if I had to put one moment  on that timeline, we had funding to work with the ATO, and to host a teacher conference workshop. And, you know, the way that we would have worked up until this moment that you're asking about, right, was that, you know, we have funding, we have an idea. And then we bring on partner, right to especially if it was going to be related to any Indigenous related history or topic, we would like, pick up the phone and ask Andrew or ask other leads at school boards, and people, we have relationships, we're doing this, we're doing this initiative, we're doing this workshop, would you like to come on board? And in this moment, Jasmine said, you know, I don't want to work like this. I think let's bring on the partners with a blank slate, just ask the partners like, what do they need? How do they want to be involved? Who should be part of this program? How do we build it, and she started co-creating. And it was such an incredible day. And I think that it was real, it was for many people a change in sort of the way people saw Facing History also as working. It was one of those examples where partners could see that Facing History was working differently than other organizations or than other places. And certainly, I mean, again, reflecting on our own growth,it was different than the way we had been working. I would say would be a moment. But again, I really think that it was as relationships grew. I'll say the time changed. Like when we started this work, We weren't in the educational world. I know there were people talking about sovereignty that's not new. But the language and the approach like things are really we're now able to think about these things and name them like even if we were thinking about them now we can actually name that and our partners and relationships and like trusted educators who trust that they can name it, it's I just feel like it's yeah, I'm not being entirely, it's hard to articulate something that feels sort of just like a better practice, it's just a better way it is better. It's better for everyone, right? A reciprocal relationship in all parts of your life. If you think about any relationship that feels one sided, or somebody's taking more than the other is getting these are those with friendships and marital relationship, like in all parts of our life relationships that are reciprocal, feel better and are more successful and are more fruitful. And so this is that it's sort of it's from that place now that Facing History- it always is going to be top of mind, because it is just a better way of working. 

Jessica Sass  36:08  

Yeah. So in terms of it being a better practice, I think that this, this question is kind of connected. And again, I'm going off script, so I might need a second. But something that I've been thinking about and has, I think has come into more mainstream discourse around social change has been a component of like, going beyond the redemption narrative and focusing on pulling and cultivating kind of having change and recognition and accountability. Can be a joyous practice, of course, trauma is important to focus on. But it can also be limiting if you just focus on the trauma, and you focus just on the past. So I'm wondering, and this comes from a question that Andrew mentioned, why he loves Facing History Canada so much is that you don't only just focus on the past, but you also envision Indigenous people's futures, which is something that doesn't happen ever, really. So he said, it's really, you know, beautiful to not only recognize that people still exist, but that there is a future and there can be a future that can, you know, facilitate joy or healing or can look different. So I'm wondering how this, again, might be a feeling or through building trust, and might be hard to articulate, but how, how can you? Or did you shift from this redemption narrative that I think, happens very often in Holocaust education. And have, kind of looking at new possibilities of continued conversation and knowing that I took the Stolen Lives course. And I felt like there wasn't closure, but it also felt like intentional, but there wasn't kind of a closing feeling because it shows that, you know, that the work continues.

Leora Schaefer  38:00  

Yeah. So that is from Facing History sort of sounding thinking is that, you know, learning happens and growth happens, when we're not- when we actually are allowing us to sit in the disequilibrium and the messiness. We have this sort of black and white, sort of, I always say, the sort of like, Star Wars narrative, that, you know, in these stories that, you know, there's the good guy, there's the bad guy, and then it just gets, neatly tied up at the end. And then, and our history textbooks do this, too, right? So you, you learn about one thing, and then it gets tied up neatly in a bow, and then you move on to World War Two, Cold War, like you just sort of move on. It's like, gets all sort of neatly tied up. And then we know that's not actually the way to live experiences. It's just not the way either the way the world works. So this idea that learning happens when things aren't neatly tied up in a bow. And so that's probably why you felt that in the Stolen Lives course, that we're not, you know, and,  also the scope and sequence is not linear, right? The history approach to teaching is not like we're teaching history for the most part, which is clearly linear. And yet, we teach it in a cyclical way. And so this idea that you were, we're constantly returning to questions of identity. We're constantly returning to thinking about our role and our choices, right? We are cutting back and cycling through. So that's one reason why we, you know, you don't feel this narrative of tying things up. But I also think that we understand that when we're studying a history, like the residential school, we're not saying that well, the history ends, you know, okay, the last school closed. This is where, you know, there's the end, or oh TRC came out with a report, here's that's the end, now we move on to the next. We understand that there are lived legacy; these moments are lived in an ongoing way, an intergenerational way, from generation to generation. And that is not always like yes, part of that conversation is around intergenerational trauma, and lived experiences and how that is passed on. But it is also about resiliency. And it's about Indigenous people today. And it's about, you know, we're not looking at any of this through a behind glass, right, like a museum experience of a people that once lived. Right. These are, this is an ongoing, lived experience, you know, when our teachers look at and examine the Indian Act, you see, the Indian Act, lived today. And you also see Indigenous, you know, equally important are the incredible individuals, including our partners, they're people who are creating change, bringing about new reality, realities, teaching language. It is. It is not. This is not a story. It's not, it's not, it's not Yes, it is a story of attempted genocide. It is not a story of completion.That's really important. It's a template that was attempted the resilient lives of people and communities and possibilities, right? What are the possibilities? And what does it take that imagination of a truly sovereign reality where Indigenous peoples are leading that, that you have to have that. There are people that are doing that work. It's not even an imagined reality, but to see that as a real possibility as a real lived experience. We want our students to not only study trauma, and also not to begin from a place of trauma. 

Leora Schaefer  43:05  

And this is something I I really also learned when I was teaching about the Holocaust, especially in Jewish schools where, you know, just to start learning, what we learned in the Jewish education program. The story that they the director of that program, the founder, once said, was, you know, the reason why she created this program was because or this initiative was in Facing History was because Jewish student,her daughter was going to Jewish school and learning about the Holocaust. Instead, the way we're learning about the Holocaust makes a lot of us not want to be Jewish at all. And this idea that you're just studying about, an attempted genocide rather than understanding the lived experiences of Jewish people before the war, right? So that's also the point how are we, we're not starting the story with a narrative of genocide and loss, we want to start by actually appropriately turning to our partners to help our students and are their teachers and our students learn about lived experiences of Indigenous people before we start learning about attempted destruction of indigenous civilization. Right, that's there's a that's really important also from that kind of approach to teaching.

Jessica Sass  44:32  

Yeah. And I think that that also informs this kind of level of like a new, a new or different level of empathy. Like when students are informed beyond just trauma, empathy towards one another and towards their own identities and their own place. Which is really important

Leora Schaefer  44:54  

 And, and yet still, the work has to be trauma informed, and we have to identify that it is a story Right, like we're not we're not trying to gloss over or not be honest or right?But also be completely honest, in what we're teaching.

Jessica Sass  45:15  

So this is also off, but I'm gonna get back to my questions around justice. But when doing all this work in ensuring that it is co collaborative, co creating with others, how do you check in with yourself as you know a leader of the organization ensuring that you don't elicit unconscious hierarchies that just happen. You know, right now even between an interviewer and interviewee there is that dynamic that just happens that I'm trying not to replicate. But how do you check in with yourself? And how have you seen, I don't know if it's a mindset shift or over time, how you ensured that you elevate other people's thoughts and opinions equitably.

Leora Schaefer  46:03  

It is a constant check. And it's, it is that I have a wonderful colleague in Jasmine, and Erez Zobary, and me. We're a team who are constantly checking, keeping check, asking questions, it is always about asking questions, always asking, is this our place? Is this what we should be applying for when it comes to funding? Is this the right place for us to be working? Who has invited us in? That's a really important question, are we being asked to help? Are we being told please just move out of the way? You know that question of how can we best help, you know, how you can best help move out of the way and, and accepting that actually, that's fine. This, this doesn't need to be if we're not adding. And so it's just a constant trust, and then also, because we have these trusted relationships now that I also, you know, when we're asked to participate in something, we can trust that, that this is we're being invited in to support. And we also would trust our partners to say, we don't we don't mean Facing History in this way, or we need Facing History in a different way. And so both self checking, having colleagues that are just so thoughtful, having and having gone on, having learned alongside and learned continuing to learn from each other. Our partners, we wouldn't do this work if we didn't have this sort of these groups of individuals who, who have asked us to still be involved with you, who have expressed that to us. But yeah, constant checking, constant checking.

Jessica Sass  47:31  

So I'm going to shift the question a little bit, I have a few more. So I'm curious to know, what does justice mean to you in the context of education? And or even answer either? What are the elements of education that need to be changed to be more just?

Leora Schaefer  48:41  

So I would say that this question of who is leading? Who leads this work is central to that question of justice. And whose voices are centered? And where and how, and from whom youth in this country are learning about Indigenous related issues? That's, I think, the central question when it comes to education, those are the central questions. And how, how are we creating a system that is ever changing that will, you know, more Indigenous educators, more academic leaders, teaching in schools, and more of a an ultimately, I really do think that if we're really going to be thinking about justice, in education, I think we have to really start questioning what schools look like. Sort of not taking, not going on the assumption or instead of going, you know, schools will always look like schools look like now, because they have for a very long time. I think they're one of the most colonially imported, where did why do schools look like this? This is not how kids globally learn in these schools with bells and desks and buildings that are built with windows that don't open. I think if we're really going to be thinking about what justice looks like, we really need to be sort of turning our thinking about what schools and schooling looks like, on its head, and, and taking the lead from lots of different people, including Indigenous people in this country who should be leading that work. So that we're not just replicating a system and just taking it for granted. This is what defines a school. This is what schooling looks like, this is what an education looks like, this is what success looks like. Right? These things that have not really changed for generations. Ultimately, that's what that's what justice will look like if we really start thinking about education in a completely completely different way. 

Jessica Sass  51:29  

So when reflecting back on your experience, co developing the curriculum for Stolen Lives and Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, how would you say  justice was reflected in those curriculums, whether that be like in the context of what was being produced, the course content, or just how you're working in a way that promoted justice with your partners.

Leora Shaefer  51:54  

So I really think that you need to think about the work that Jasmine has been doing on Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls differently, than the resource, the book called Stolen Lives. I would say that we are working in the way we work on teaching about residential schools, now we are working towards a model of justice and thought in true reciprocal relationships. But I would say that the work in the way that work was initiated in developing in this ongoing process. With looking at Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls content and work that's being done truly is far more reflective of a of a justice, a changed way of working. Whether it's specifically Well, I would say a sovereign seeking, right,  it's who's guiding this work, who owns this work? These are different questions. What's the timeline of how we're producing this work? That's very different, right? We're not working towards a specific deadline, we're working with partners on the time that it takes to get it done, right. We're not saying like, this is going to be released in January one of whatever year, it's taking the time it needs to take to get the work done. That is both reasonable for all of the partners, because of the emotional content because of the way people's lives and schedules have been disrupted and, and alway, people are working in different ways, right? We all have many different things on our plates. And so we're not driving it with a deadline. We're driving it by a human approach to partnership and reciprocal relationships. It is built on a you know, Jasmine is not scheduling a meeting. 

Leora Schaefer  54:10  

 And I think that, you know, it's it's, it's consensus, it's community, it's not, you know, well, three of us can be available. So we'll just meet and then we'll share the notes like it is really Jasmine is working in a way that everyone is there, and everyone is working on it. And that's really part of the work. There's and so that I feel is very, it's a different way of working. It is a very different way of working. We are valuing everyone's voice and role is being valued and held up. And that's it. That's, you know, these are all really important questions to ask Jasmine, but as someone who's watching this project and really admiring the way this group of women are working? It's a very different process. As the executive director, where I can come into this role, in my role, what do I, what do I bring, you know, I am not interested in owning Facing History will not own this content, which is also turning it upside down. It will be co owned, what that looks like, how do we get that, who where does it actually live? How does it live, we'll get that we'll figure that out. And we'll figure that out in relationship. Jasmine will navigate that. But it's not something that's going to have the Facing History logo, this is funded by this foundation, we're just not doing that anymore. Every writer will be honored and named with their credentials, how they want to be named,  you don't see an author on Stolen Lives. It's Facing History, right? Most of our resources don't name the people that wrote it. That's not the practice. And we won't be working like that anymore. People are named for their contribution, ownership is shared, what happens and how that's navigated and negotiated will be a consensus driven by this group of people who are working in close, trusted reciprocal partnerships. And that is, that's, that is that's how we want to be working moving forward.

Jessica Sass  56:44  

So in light of the recent news, and the uncovering of so many children's remains, this, you know, Indigenous education, and learning and teaching about residential schools has become more of a mainstream topic  in Canadian discourse, for sure, and in the US. So I'm wondering, and I don't know if you can predict this in this, this is all like, based off of opinion, but how do you think that more of like mainstream news and discourse could potentially support your goals?Facing History's goals, and your, you know, partners' goals? And their value systems.

Leora Schaefer  57:30  

So the discovery of the unmarked graves and sort of this awakening that our country has sort of gone through, I should just say, people were so surprised, this was not the word shocking,Indigenous communities have been saying, since the report like it's in the TRC. It's in the report that the TRC released that the number of deaths of children is greatly underestimated that there were communities, I knew that there were unmarked graves on these sites. So like, there's two- like Indigenous communities, our partners, were not nobody was we weren't surprised. Canadians who were not paying attention, you're right now we're paying now they're paying attention. And so I think there is this moment where, you know, there are more opportunities,there are more opportunities. I think that education. So look into the future. I mean, I don't know, I feel like we have such as humans. What happened is already long forgotten. I think that the number of people who still like following this and realizing that there continue to be unmarked graves, I don't know how many Canadians have that just humans are just so fickle, but  there aren't just like, the next thing that happens. And it's as if it's forgotten, which is insane. And I think that's insane. So I think that one thing that Facing History can play a role is like, this is continuing to be important. It hasn't changed and it's important, it is ongoingly important for us. But I think that  we're so concerned for the front, the people like Andrew on the front lines and other leads at boards who are, you know, bothfor me to say that people weren't surprised, does not mean that they were not like that people were not devastated. Like the findings like, you know, speaking to, like checking in and just making sure that people are friends and colleagues and partners like just how they're doing it like it was . It's devastating. So It's no less harmful and horrible even though it wasn't the news that it's surprising, but  people knew that they were there, but that the numbers and the babies it's just, there's no words. So we were really concerned for, you know, people like Andrew and Kim who were dealing with the emotional burden of their own personal life, and also having every single teacher on their board all of a sudden being like I need to teach this, like we've been, we need to do this. Meanwhile, we've been saying this for a long time, but all doesn't, everybody wants to teach about this. And the very people who are being turned to or the very people who are having to, both manage other people and deal with other people on their own. So we were really concerned and obviously wanting to be a partner to help support the number of teachers who were turning to their school leads and their school board leads to help support them. So that's not exactly your question. But I think that there's, I think that there's work to be done. I do think again, it's that constant check of  what is the role? How about asking our partners, can we help you? All these teachers are now interested in teaching and want to be teaching this? How can we help support? What are the resources we can help? Can we help you in doing this work, but not this is not again, this is not the moment for Facing History to be like, okay, here's the program, and we're going to do it. And it really is a thoughtful slow, not slow, but a thoughtful approach in conversation to say, how can we help you, is there not even how can we help not even coming with the assumption that we should be helping but like, is there a role for Facing History to help you to support you give, you know, what can we do? That's, I think the way, the way, the way we are approaching this and the way we are, but I do hope that there isn't this like reactionary, it's now it's gone? You know, we're past it, and that by now that teachers are no longer thinking about it. I don't think that's the case. I actually think that even before this teachers have been really dedicated to teaching the true history.

Jessica Sass  1:02:30  

Yeah, I hope not. But then it's also in America with all the innocent black men that have been killed by, you know, police force, and, you know, we, for a second we're all on it, and America, white America is waking up and reacting in wanting to organize and then a few months go by and then the next person found dead, and  then, you know, the momentum continues for a bit. But then when it's done, it's yeah.

Leora Schaefer  1:03:01  

I mean, we are not, we're not forgetting, we're not moving on. We'll take the lead of our part, we'll follow the lead of our partners, we'll see where we have a role, but we're not going we're not we're not done, we're not forgetting, we're not moving on from one moment to the next we're trying we're actually working to help connect those dots and connect those moments to understand that you know, all of these things are connected. So yeah, no, that's, that's important as well.

Jessica Sass  1:03:33  

Yeah. Which is why I talked a lot with my professors about ensuring that there has to be a constant connection between the head and the heart in education and in your learning experience too. I don't think you want to ask me the questions.

Jessica Sass  1:04:24  

Okay, I guess I have one last question and then if you have anything that you'd like to add, please feel free. So my initial question, and I'm going to change it but I'm gonna read it first just to offer it, was do you think that let me actually no, I'm just gonna change it off the bat. Because you have this you know, co this collaborative relationship and true partnership with other Indigenous educators and educators in your community. I'm wondering if in the future, or if you're already doing this right now, how do you hope to engage with other educational organizations or institutions, whether that be inside civil society or outside civil society to kind of not not necessarily use you as a model. Because that's not ideal to say  I don't know how to rephrase it, but to try to kind of work with other institutions to potentially be more collaborative or like partnership focused, rather than having a transactional partnership with. I mean, that might not be something that you can control. 

Leora Schaefer  1:05:43  

I mean, I think we're certainly drawn to other organizations who have similar, you know, who have similar practices and ways of working. You know, it's interesting, we've done years and years ago, we did a presentation at the Inspire Conference, and Enika Guthrie, who works in the public school board in Thunder Bay. We presented at this conference. And because a leader in Indigenous education in this province, I would probably say, this country, but certainly this province. And we had worked together in Thunder Bay, and we co presented a session that modeled how we worked together to facilitate and to offer Stolen Lives. We did that once I think, you know, Jasmine has done some sessions by invitation at school boards on like, you know, being a non Indigenous person in this work and her way of thinking, and she's done some sessions. So I don't, you know, I think it's not happening a lot. But it happens when the opportunity, when we're invited in to do that. It'll be interesting to me to see what happens with this and how Andrew is involved in where he wants to share this kind of information. Yeah, I don't know. I like and I also think, it's hard for us to think that we're going to present or share because we're still like, I really do think strongly. I really do believe that, that we're learning, we're still like, I wish I get like, we never make mistakes. And we never like have, we're constantly stumbling, and learning and rethinking and questioning, and asking questions and trying to figure out, how we work? And what are the ways that we're doing this work and being reflective? We are constantly reflecting and thinking and questioning and judging ourselves like, and so I don't think that we have answers or that we're, I just don't think we're there. I don't think that we'll ever I think that we're still gonna make mistakes. Like I don't know, I think that I just 

Jessica Sass  1:08:27  

Yeah I know what you're saying. It's a continuous process. And l you can be closer, but like what is closer even like, what does that mean? 

Leora Schaefer  1:08:37  

To what? Right? And you know what I would say that, that it's actually through, like this process with you. And some sessions that we've been doing,  in an organization with for US colleagues, where it's like, we're actually being asked to articulate and think about these moments, and  where was it that we learned something? And how did we learn it? And what would we share? Well, we haven't actually slowed down very much to think about it like that's why this process has actually been really, really nice and will be even more interesting, or like even more interesting for me to hear what others are saying and how they see our practice. Because some things we do just because we do it because we're in relationship because we think carefully about what, what we do and how we do it. And we are an organization that is reflective in our establishment. We are just like that is. I guess that goes back to your first question. We're an organization that strives to be curious. We strive to listen to others, we want to ask questions, our pedagogy is reflective of this and our practices as colleagues are this way as well. And so it's interesting to sort of slow down and think about what we do because sometimes we're not even thinking about it. And that's when we make mistakes, but it's also when we do things right. So I don't know, really answering your question. But

Jessica Sass  1:10:06  

Is there anything else that you want to add? Before I start this interview? I do have like one last question that's kind of unrelated to all of this. But I do want to ask it. But before I go there,

Leora Schaefer  1:10:17  

No, I think I'm really excited to see what I'm excited to learn from. I mean that's your question also. We're learning, we're reflecting and growing. And, yeah, this is my colleague, Steve Becton, who's the Chief Equity and Inclusion Officer Facing History, but we've worked with him for years, and we've learned so much from him. And, you know, he says, you know, you got your faults,  he likes working with us, because we fall forward, you know, so that we don't fall, but we really try to learn. 

Jessica Sass  1:10:57  

So I realize, I just thought of this kind of during, before the interview that I want, I think we're gonna have to go back and ask everyone this, maybe via email, but I've been reading this book called Pleasure Activism, and it's by her name is Adrienne Marie Brown. And she's kind of an educator, healing facilitator, and wears many hats. And she in one of her chapters, just had a list of kind of alluding to like standing on the shoulders of giants, so of people that came before her and honoring legacy. And her book really also has been, you know, stories of whether mentors or family members or friends have been kind of interwoven in the story, to also show and honor their legacy in her work. So I'm going to for sure have a section in my thesis about my acknowledgments, but I'm wondering if there's anyone, like in particular, when you think about this work, like on a day to day basis, or even just now if there's someone that comes to mind that you'd like to honor that you hold close when when having these types of conversations?

Leora Schaefer  1:12:14  

So many of the people that you're interviewing are certainly in that list, but I would also say we won't have to, we won't. I wish we could have had the opportunity to meet with Theodore Fontaine. That he is a key moment that I didn't get a chance to tell you about in this journey, like in the development of Stolen Lives was that at one point, I was ready to stop the project altogether. Return the money that we had received from TD Bank to produce the bucks just call it quit. Because it became clear to me through actually, at the time of broken relationships that I didn't at the time realize that actually. We weren't working in the best way. And so this person was calling us out for the way we're working. And I really didn't think that she was right. And actually I've since reflected on that moment, a lot. In any case, I was really ready to just say like if we were going to do this and make it worse,  if our being involved was actually making relationships work. If we were making a bigger problem that this wasn't the role for face they became it was like this isn't the place for Facing History. And I was introduced through colleagues, people, scholars I knew in Manitoba. I was introduced to Theodore Fontaine in this moment. And in that first meeting, I don't even know why. But Theodore felt like he could trust me. He felt that the work that we were doing was of value. He saw the possibility for a relationship. He said in that first meeting, which is so crazy that even things that he said, you know, at some point, I feel like I'm gonna give me your name. I'm like, I'm a Jewish girl who grew up in Winnipeg, exactly like but, but in leaving that meeting, If he feels if he can trust me, if he sees something that in that moment I did not see in myself. If he thinks that relationship is possible, if he thinks that Facing History is a place that he can trust, to help tell his story to help elevate and bring more teachers to learn. And then and that brought, then that made things possible. And so and then it was, you know, Theodore just gave so much and trusted so much like he was so open to building a relationship, but not only me, but the team and was Facing History sort of as an organization. And he put, he gave so much he trusted us with so much with his story with the time. And so and then, there's just, I mean, I can't even I mean, again, I'm just trying to even tell you how important he is, there's just no words for it. But like, we built a relationship so that, you know, like, He's family, he and Morgan our family, truly family, I am tied to them. I am bound to them. I am connected. And this is like, yes, Facing History. But this is personally like we are connected. And that's that like that, like nothing of this, nothing would be possible. And the amounts when you ask like the personal and professional, like the learning and the growth, like I am a different person, because of my relationship that I have with Theodore and with Morgan. What he taught me the lessons about - well, so here's a decolonizing, like you asked, how you'll put this together in any semblance. 

Leora Schaefer  1:16:51  

But here's another piece that I'm now thinking about, right? You asked about, like, what does justice look like and how, for me, when we think about white supremacy culture and what it might mean to decolonize and work differently. You know, so much of what how I work and how I think and what I've learned, and, and how I think about what it really means to decolonize practice has come from Theo explicitly and implicitly teach me lessons about patience, and the value of storytelling, and the importance of humility. And I mean, for him, I mean, I just go through all of the seven grandfather teachings, but in each there were lessons that he shared with me, that made me, that make me a better leader, a better educator, a better person. And those that way of working, I can just think of all these different things that he's like, and then he would sometimes like, there'll be lessons in things that he would do that I wouldn't know were lessons until later. And I'd be like, oh, yeah, you want it to teach me to be more patient. And to not watch the time or to like, Give something the space it needs. And so all of these, like, I'm just different. I'm a better everything because of Theodore 100%. Like, there's no doubt. And when you ask me how can we do this work? It's because like, how do we make sure that we're doing things in the right way? Because I always think about like, what would Theodore want me to do right now? What would he tell me? Like I joke with Morgan like, I call him in I need him to help. I don't know what the right thing to do in this moment is and so I think about that. So he's constantly continuing to guide and those lessons. So Theodore Fontaine. And then Kim, I can't even like Kim has Kim would literally lwhisper in my ear. Just relax. Don't over think this. You're coming from a good place. Don't worry about making mistakes. Like actually like give me a hug and tell me these things in my ear. And that trust that Kim like from early early on. We've had these moments where Kim has taught me things like you can think yourself into being paralyzed to not do anything. You can be so worried that you're going to get something wrong, that you don't do anything at all. And that's been a lesson that she's taught me and us, but particularly me about like, just come from a good place. Just make sure you're coming from a good place, and will know that and so, when I've apologized, and owned mistakes that I've made, I think, I hope that people hear them from a place of like, honesty, and of owning the mistake. And just wanting to come from a good place and everything we do, and therefore, making things better owning mistakes that I make. We're doing what I can to help repair.. Yeah, no, Kim has been, and we've just learned so much about everything about everything about how we work about how we listen, sitting quietly. I mean, you wouldn't know this from this interview, because I've been talking for an hour and a half. But just sitting and listening in a circle being the facilitator where you're not facilitating, but you're listening to people in the room and making as much space as you need to make for people to reflect and share and speak without thinking about the next session or the next thing we have to do. I could go on and on. But yeah, there's lots of people who we've, we've been, I've been learning from. And oh, just yeah, everything. Everything.

Jessica Sass  1:22:09  

Well, thank you. Thank you for your time.

Leora Schaefer  1:22:12  

Oh my god that was a while.

Jessica Sass  1:22:14  

I'm gonna pause it.